Rick Denton: 0:05

You're listening to CX Passport, the show about creating great customer experiences with a dash of travel talk. Each episode well talk with our guests about great CX, travel...and just like the best journeys, explore new directions we never anticipated. I'm your host Rick Denton. I believe the best meals are served outside and require a passport. Let's get going. When a conversation between two people who don't know each other moves to a discussion about churrascaria within the first two minutes, I know I found a conversational soulmate. What's not to like? Meet good, unending skewer deliveries of food good global cuisine discussion, good. What a treat I knew I would have right then and there. When I first met today's guest, Jimmy Hosang, CEO at The Modular Analytics company. Beyond discussing a meal that requires several gallons of water to neutralize the salt intake, Jimmy has a fantastic set of worldview experiences and a great approach to customer experience. I didn't know this when I started talking to him. But once again, I've come across a guest who has extensive experience in the performing arts. I love that there isn't this one mono track entry into business, and specifically the business of customer experience. I'm eager to explore more about that with Jimmy today. Jimmy, welcome to CX Passport.

Jimmy Hosang: 1:29

Thanks for having me, Rick.

Rick Denton: 1:31

It's gonna be fun, gonna be gonna be a lot of fun. Now, let's just jump right in. And I want to ask you about that performing arts career. Tell me more about that. And how did that come to influence your approach to customer experience?

Jimmy Hosang: 1:44

Well, it's quite interesting, actually, I think it's influenced me in two ways. One is around customer experience, but one is around who I am as a human being and kind of starting a company. And I'll probably start with that second one. So I started doing performing arts when I was kind of in my kind of early teens. And I actually did it because I was relatively confident I was relatively good at it. And I'm an incredibly lazy person. I just like to do the things that I was kind of good at. And by good, I mean, just good compared to other people like these, there's some people who are on this earth because they don't mind be made a fool of one of those people. So like, it wasn't particular talent or anything, like I would just go and have a pie thrown in my face. One of my former acting tutors said what I was really good at was falling over. Show the, the, the limits of my skills. And, and so but this is quite interesting. So being a bit of a clown and a bit of a joker, like going through, going through performing arts and then going into university. Another best maturity is a guy called Mark bishop. He said, Look, you need to, you need to, you need to kind of watch yourself because you'll get this Tears of a Clown kind of thing, where and everybody who kind of grows up being a comedian and being a performer in that type of thing and doing kind of pratfalls. They actually grew up wanting to play homework, or wanting to play Macbeth or wanting to be taken seriously. And I think actually, even though I ignored him, then, like, having gone through performing arts being a failed actor, not being able to get anybody to buy my scripts that I'd written and all of this stuff, I actually had an inflection point, which was, I do want to be taken seriously. And how I was the role that I chose, rather than playing Hamlet, and Macbeth was doing data science. And I kind of really, so that kind of really influenced me, because I kind of had that. I was 26. I was one of the fortunate people to have like, a midlife crisis. It's 27 years old.

Rick Denton: 3:58

That's pretty early. Yeah. Okay.

Jimmy Hosang: 4:00

It's good to get it all the way.

Rick Denton: 4:03

Unless it's round one. But yeah,

Jimmy Hosang: 4:05

yeah. Well, I could get a couple more. Yeah, so I kind of started earlier. And I had one of those. What does it all mean at 27. And my daughter, my daughter was born Lenny. And I needed to support her. So I had to, I had to think of ways in which it's about her and I was working. I was working behind the bar at the time, I was doing tele sales kind of roles. And I was like, I need to do something that's serious. And that's how I taught myself how to program taught myself how to code and then taught myself about analytics. So I think that's, so that's kind of the genesis of of that and I actually, it's funny, I bet you then spend kind of 10 to 13 years, saying, I'm not a performing artist. I'm a data scientist or I'm an I'm an analyst, and kind of dedicate yourself to kinda coding and programming and being taken seriously. And I always, I've always felt like, again, some of my peers, I've never really been taken seriously, I've always had a bit of a chip on my shoulder. Because because some of these guys have, like, you know, the top 1% in maths, or they've gone from Oxford, and PPE. And then I'm a guy who did performing arts wasn't very good at and then taught himself how to code. So it was always that bit, but actually now, you know, having the type of company that we run, which is, you know, a voice analytics and experience company, and the type of role that I do, which is going on to podcast speaking to you guys getting up and doing talks and things like that, and getting people to engage with tech, which can be pretty, pretty bloody boring, like, actually abuse way more of my performing art skills. And, and some of those life lessons that I learned back in my early 20s is more than

Rick Denton: 5:58

Boy. And I mean, there's so many so much that's in there, right? I'm already imagining the the coding bartender. So you started, yeah, learning to code as when you were bartending, the idea of using that, that pivot and just being able to get that confidence on stage. But there's something in there about that description of, hey, this is how we make tech, not more friendly, but just more accessible. And using that ability to communicate tech. And I think of that when I think of customer experience in general, like you said, a data guy, right. But a lot of us think of customer experience as sort of art or humanity or more of the emotional side of thing. But it really is that customer experience takes that art. And it's science woven together. So your Renaissance approach seems like it was well suited to CX, how have you blended those two worlds actively today, in your own experience, that art that science side of customer experience?

Jimmy Hosang: 6:53

So I think what I like to what I like to kind of say, and this is a relatively controversial subject, especially in the field, but I was I worked in, in performance marketing, telemarketing, I've worked in in contact centers and our technologies in contact centers, and and coming from a performing arts background, and then flipping into contact centers and analytics. Over the last 10 years, everything that you told in contact centers is at goes against what I learned as a performer. So, so things around script. So there was a move against, like contact center scripts. And actually all the I knew with scripts, and learning learning the best way to scripted and actually like really delving into a script like what, what what I used to learn was, you can't, you can't do the performance until you've learned the script until you've learned the script off by heart and you feel the words, that's when you can do the performance. And then I'm going into a contact center where scripts are getting rid of like we're no no, no, we don't want scripts. But that just makes no sense to me. And I kind of went along with it. Because people went no, we don't want scripts. And we want to do active listening. We want to be empathetic, and all those types of things actually, like that. What that sounds like to me is improvisation. Okay, so I improvise. So we've done you know, I used to spend an hour a day doing improv Yeah, it is absolutely wearing on year having to try and figure things like to sit having to think of things to say all of the time not knowing where the conversations go in. And then I imagined myself like, as a customer service agent, would do I really want to improv and riff all day. Absolutely not like really, and I don't think that that's good for the customer service agent. I don't think it's good for the brand that they're represented. I think what should happen is, you should design the best experiences, like the best songs, the best films, the best theater, it's designed, is designed by a scriptwriter. It's, it's given. It's given the feel and the themes by alters like Scorsese and dinero acted and Spielberg and then the performer like works within those boundaries to deliver the best performance.

Rick Denton: 9:19

What a contrarian view I like I like this Jimmy is going to be an audio podcast. But my my brain, my face is kind of furrowed. This is a very alter view, because scripts are generally perceived as constraining and restricting and negative to employee experience. But what you're saying is, oh, no, hang on a second. This actually could improve employee experience by providing one element of the day that is not an energy drain, but rather just a way for them to to be able to deliver a great experience inside that script. Now, one thing you did,

Jimmy Hosang: 9:52

Rick, sorry, what's your who's your favorite singer?

Rick Denton: 9:55

I my knee jerk reaction. I always say U2. I say Bono, right. I love a lot Music though it's all over the map. And how about for today we'll say you to Ivano.

Jimmy Hosang: 10:03

What? What's your favorite U2 song?

Rick Denton: 10:07

Ooh, that one I cannot answer. But I can say that my my favorite album tends to be the unforgettable fire. I'm usually in that space all the way back there.

Jimmy Hosang: 10:15

That's a long time ago. That's a long time ago. Yeah. Now, Bono, and the edge. And the other guys. Like they rehearsed and rehearsed and rehearse those songs. And then over 20-30 years, they get up on stage and sing those songs. And they almost get better and better and better every time you hear them. Right? Those are those are scripted, he wrote those songs. And then he sings those same words over and over and over again. Yeah, but when it's crafted, it's how it's crafted, it's crafted to get an emotional reaction, and it and actually watching it live, it actually gets a reaction from the crowd, you can see sometimes in a live environment, it's it's, there's a call and response mechanism between and and the audience is exactly the same with a two way conversation over the phone like you, you, if you've designed the great experience, it's up to your actor, your contact center agent, to say the right words in the right order and elicit the right responses from you, your customer, and that's what I believe. And we've we've kind of we've just what's happened is we've seen scripts as being robotic, but it wasn't the scripts that were robot robotic it was we weren't teaching the contact center agents that they were there to deliver the experience. And therefore they just stuck to the to the task. Actually, I think there's a different way of doing it. And what we've seen is like the introduction of scripts into script was environments, has driven better customer experience driven better customer outcomes. And you know, what human to human is really, really valuable. Like, the the move to human to chatbot, and things like that. It's it's taken a step too far, like daily human to human experience first, and give them all of the training and all the mechanisms to support them.

Rick Denton: 12:02

Yeah, and one of the things that I'm hearing in there, or at least the epiphany or mini epiphany that I'm getting from you is, it's not so let me say it this way. It can be that the script itself is not well thought out. And that is why so long ago, we thought that scripts were this sterile thing. But actually, if it is a well crafted script, aka well crafted song, a well crafted play a well crafted musical. If that's there, then you allow the agent to become the actor, and actors have an interpretation of the script, it is not that I'm exploring voice voiceover work right now, right, and I'm learning how you can read the words in a very sterile way I am written or you can have some sort of emotion and your own flavor on it and allowing agents to have that actor and actress sort of skill set to be able to deliver that in a way that provides humanity and expression to that script. Jimmy, this is this is very contrarian, but it's very interesting.

Jimmy Hosang: 12:57

And I'm gonna I'm gonna hop back to churrascaria platform of all you can eat, so I will. Yeah, cuz it's food. So I was talking, I was talking to a friend. So 14 years ago, today, I traveled to New York, with a very good friend of mine, John. And we went on Restaurant Week, and we ate over all of these different places. And I was talking to him about the other day, and I was talking to him about the service you get and things like that. And I said, he works. He works in hospitality. I've worked in hospitality before. And I've said, and I was talking to him about scripts as well. And he said, Yeah, but you know, there's too many different, you know, different, different responses that you could get from customers and things like that. And I said, but John is there. I said, I know for a fact that every single day you tell the same joke to 20 different people. And he was it. He said he had, and he said, You, you speak to people in exactly the same way you do the same opening you how you ask how they asked for the bill, how you ask if everything was alright, at the end, all these types of things, the little jokes that you do, it's all the same. It's a carefully crafted thing that you've done. And he's like, Yes, I agree. I said, That was that was your view about how that should be done. But what happens if the company and the brand needs you to do it in a slightly different way? The reality is, like if you don't give people scripts, they craft their own scripts, we have no control over it. And some of those some of those things that they say are great, but some of them might not be so great. Yeah, that's interesting.

Rick Denton: 14:32

Let's, let's pull at this thread a little bit because one of the things that we're talking about data we're talking about art and science and and love this exploration of scripts, but one of the things that a script can do is kind of devolve into robotic, right. And we talked about kind of the delivery the robotic and you even mentioned kind of the the approach to bots and API's, and I'm not anti that at all there are times that I find the bot engagements so much better and that's fine because that's the journey I need. I need just a quick in and out type thing. But I do wonder, especially over the pandemic, much of CX work, the overarching customer experience work has been a focus on digital and a focus on technology. Have we pushed the pendulum too far? And if so, how do we bring that humanity back into CX?

Jimmy Hosang: 15:17

Yeah, good question. Over the last 10 years, we've, we've heavily digitized and over the last 10 years, my belief is, I don't think it's a belief. I think it's fact. But CX has gone down, like people like some CX measures have gone down. And especially, especially in certain industries. And the overarching narrative for that is people are more demanding, like the demand degree to experience the less they've got less patience, and things like that. That's what everybody's been told. However, what, what, what might be happening is we've just made everything worse. So by automating everything, and deflect trying to deflect everything to cheaper channels, yeah, and doing God, like doing our damnedest to not let the customer contact you, because you've got to save costs and people on the phone, right as anybody thought, maybe we're just making things really, really rubbish. And maybe we're causing, like loads and loads of dissatisfaction. And nobody, everybody has everyone to speak to is like our customers are just more demanding. They expect this. Maybe, but maybe we just made things really, really hard for them to get some done. They've got longer wait times. And because it's all been cost focused rather than value focus

Rick Denton: 16:43

that I think the key point there right is, and I've had this great conversation with others on other Ido Cohen bone Bornstein several episodes ago, he really tries to avoid the word deflection. And it for the exact reasons that you did is it's a it's a negative, right, I don't want to be deflected. But what he says is he talks about designing the experience to be that value for the customer. And so that if a technology solution is the right solution for that customer contact, and it is desired by the customer, then make that the most amazing experience possible, not just make it some crappy automated, but make it a great experience. But then provide still the avenue for that human experience. When that human experience is the better example. And I'll give you an example that's come up a couple times is I don't actually like calling restaurants to book reservations anymore. 99% of my restaurant reservation bookings are done through an app, or done through a website. It gives me the one it's simple, it's fast, it's quick, and it gives me the simplicity or no the comfort of knowing that it's confirmed in there. And now I've gotten the point that I'm worried about the human that's writing it down, am I going to show up and not have that reservation? That to me is an example of technology working great for me. But I know that if I had some other sort of challenge, I left my wallet in the restaurant. I don't want to deal with an app, I want to call and talk to a human and find out did you recover my wallet? And can I come get it some day?

Jimmy Hosang: 18:06

The booking restaurant one that is a really interesting, really interesting use case. Because what I say and like, I might be wrong, I could easily be wrong. But what I say is, yes, but if you could, if you could speak to a device like Alexa and say, Alexa, I've had to just switch mine off so I don't trigger it.

Rick Denton: 18:27

I was gonna say everybody listening go turn off your Alexa quickly.

Jimmy Hosang: 18:29

Yeah. If I had to go, Alexa, book me a table for two at sougo. Tonight at seven o'clock, please. Can you confirm that they've got the reservation, and the Alexa went to airway confirmed, we'll call we'll send you a text message to confirm the reservation. That that? What did I spend 15 seconds. Yeah, that is actually less effort than picking up your phone flipping through a load of stuff and stuff. So So I I'm, I'm not against automation. I'm not against like AI. I'm not a Luddite. I hope I'm not a Luddite. They decide this. But actually, the voice experience is going to be more and more prevalent. And people don't even I think there's some people who don't even see it. Like, you know, people talk about async doing asynchronous messaging, which I really like asynchronous messaging, it's good, much. It's much better than the old web chat kind of stuff, or what, but in almost every situation, it is quicker to talk, what makes it not as quick to talk is calling somebody and then waited in a queue, and then going through to the wrong department. And then and then being transferred to somewhere else. But it's all of those things that make it inefficient. But But imagine, imagine a world where you could go Alexa, call up my insurer, I want to talk about my, my renewal price because I'm not happy with it. And I like to go I've shedule that I've scheduled a callback and then it calls you through that in terms of what If it's brilliant, then you can do it straightaway. That's That's what I think is the future that

Rick Denton: 20:04

and that is a that example there is a brilliant example of what I mean by bringing the humanity back into the digital experience that feels like now there's the whole man I forget the term but sort of the scariness of engaging with a robot as if they're human. And I forget the term, the uncanny valley. There it is the uncanny valley. And I realized that we're talking about a device, not a robot. But nonetheless, it's still that human style engagement with technology now. Jimmy, all this talk of food has gotten me thinking about food. It's got me thinking about travel. And I know that I had mentioned to you earlier that my son COVID, and God willing, schedule willing will be studying in Japan and spring 2023. And that the family intends to go there as an excuse to travel to Japan while he's there. You have mentioned the food scene in Japan to me and look, we're back to food already. Tell me about your experiences in Japan.

Jimmy Hosang: 20:53

Oh, man, Japan, and Tokyo has some of the best food that you can ever get anywhere in the world. Yes. So so I'm obviously I said before I am, I worked in hospitality, but I'm a bit of a food air. And even when I had no money, I used to say ropa used to go in and get like Michelin star meals and pretend that I was rich and famous. And so I've always been I've always been that way. And it was always a dream of mine to where to go to, to go to Tokyo to eat. So bow. But three years ago, like I managed to we managed to get some time to go. It was actually me and my wife. We we had a kind of a bit of a bucket list of places that we wanted to go. Yeah. Before, before we had a child. So we were like, oh, we need to go. We need to go to Japan. We want to go to New York, all of these places. So. So we went to Tokyo for four or five nights. And then we went to Kyoto for three or four nights. And then we went to Hong Kong on the way back. Oh, yeah. And, man, it was the it's the coolest place. So I think we we spent a lot of time in some of the little yakitori bars, okay. Which was which was great. And the is it suckers? I'm I'm terrible. I'm terrible at pronouncing places but things like that. Were good. Me unstick plays is just me unstick places. And so I actually went to have you seen Kill Bill?

Rick Denton: 22:28

No. Oddly enough. I have not. There was a period that I didn't go see movies that came out during a period.

Jimmy Hosang: 22:33

So so there's a scene in Kill Bill where the bride Uma Thurman's character is fighting like loads and loads of different Japanese gangsters. And we went to the we went to the bar and the restaurant were shocked. So that was great. I mean, we've been traveling for a gajillion hours and drank an incredible amount of soccer. But that was really great. So there's loads of be unsticks. But the best the best day, best day was kind of the second day. So we so we had breakfast in the morning, went to multiple places around ripponlea, which was where the the hotel was. Then we went to like a really traditional, traditional Japanese Michelin star place where they do like high hyper seasonal tasting menus. Well, this this place where the kitchen was carved in stone, like sort of brought into it brought into the broth, it was beautiful. It was very zen. There is so but so funny story there was we were drinking Sakhi me my my wife and two friends. And they prepared FUBU which is puffer fish. Yeah. And they talked about, you know how they have to prepare it and how they have to like get rid of the poison eggs and all this type of stuff. We started to eat it. And my friend had a panic attack and thought it was having a heart attack. He said he was having a heart attack. And we looked at each other and just burst out we're in these like little like quiet serene Zen Blaze where everyone's was really chilled. One of my mates thinks he's having a heart attack and everybody else is laughing. themselves. So so that was good. But then there's it doesn't stop there. So we then travel back to the hotel and on the whole going back to the hotel, we find out that these aren't like an award winning kind of little tonkatsu place where you get you know the pork katsu sandwiches. Yeah. Or like our we've got to go there bearing in mind we've had like seven or eight course meal. So we went there had a had a ton catsuit carried on Drinkard. Next thing you know how to look at the other look at the time. Anyway, we've got we've got a tasting menu at a Michelin star. So we quickly how until I get dressed, go all the way to go all the way to the Mandarin Oriental, which was one of the most amazing places in Tokyo. If you want to see the no understand the vastness of Tokyo, the Mandarin Oriental, the restaurant there, it's got panoramic panoramic glass windows, and every way where you look, it's sprawling metropolis just every which way you look, it's amazing. And then we, when we have another Michelin star meal there, then we went to, then we had quite a lot of drinks that and then we went to Shibuya, which is, I think one of the largest crossings like in the world, right in the heart of Tokyo. And we went there, got to a bar we had to look at it was we've got some things on sticks. Should we get some boats? So we even ate some bar then. That was so that was my biggest food day two Michelin star restaurants, several things on six places. And yeah, I think I've got about three or four stone. I don't know if that's, I'll kgs.

Rick Denton: 26:12

Oh, my goodness, Jimmy, what a day holy cow. Well, I'm gonna invite you into the first class lounge because even though you may not need any more food and drink after a day like that, I think it's kind of nice to just chill, and just sit, maybe have something a little less exotic, but it's still nice there. In the first class slides, we'll move quickly here and hopefully have some fun. What is a dream travel location from your past?

Jimmy Hosang: 26:37

Can I choose to, of course, I'd love to. So I think for me and my wife, my dream location is the Amalfi coast. So it's such like a wonderful part of the world. The food is absolutely amazing. Like the beaches, the beaches are fantastic. It's it's really, it's really close to Pompeii, as well. So it's got like a really, really great, great culture. And I went for my I went for my honeymoon there was spent 10 days there. So it was it was one of the most amazing places, but maybe just Trump's it slightly is me, my wife and my kids and all of my family we went to, we went to Disney World. And that we went for two weeks. And we said to ourselves, what we'll just pay ourselves, we'll just take it. And we did not pay ourselves. Yeah. And, and, and I still think as well, like, it's just it's just, I know, it's kind of cheesy and stuff like that. And I know it's really busy the standing queues. But I think if you did the right people and stuff like that, like it's, it's just a really magical place. So I think I'd like to have said something really cool. But actually, like,

Rick Denton: 27:55

I kind of like the yin and yang of the Amalfi Coast and Disney World are very thing there. And it is a magical place it really, especially with family, what is let's go forward, what is a dream travel vacation? You've not been to yet?

Jimmy Hosang: 28:09

Um, I think the. So I've never been to Australia. And these. So these are these probably another two here I'll quickly go through. So we were planning to go to Australia, last last February, kind of time. And then because of COVID, we weren't able to go. So the friends that we went to Japan with have the US to live in Hong Kong. Now. They live in Australia. And so we were we were going to go and visit those guys. And we've got other friends and things down there. And I've actually opened an office as part of my business out there, which I've never been so there's loads of places that I'd love to go. I'd love to go to Australia. And if I'm being honest, yeah.

Rick Denton: 28:54

Well, that'll be that'll be good. I hear Australia a lot. That is a place that people do definitely want to get to that they've not made it to yet. What is a favorite thing to eat?

Jimmy Hosang: 29:03

Ah ramen. Oh, yeah. So, yeah, so I'm a big I'm a big ramen fan. If that's that was one of the big things I went to Japan. I didn't eat ramen at all, because nobody else wanted to eat ramen with me. So yes, but I'm fortunate that we live in Manchester in the UK, and there's some exceptionally good ramen ramen places. Now. In fact, Manchester is great for anything you get really great Vietnamese really great ramen. So really, like it was there was a sushi place called Mizzou share, which was next level good sushi, even in Manchester so

Rick Denton: 29:44

it is true but my travels to the UK primarily centered on London but in general I found that UK to be actually some really fantastic global food when you're in these global cities like Manchester or London Of course now, other side thing your parents forced you to eat but you hate it as a kid

Jimmy Hosang: 30:01

Broccoli. Okay, but I bought, I've grown to love it like my mother used to absolutely first it's on there, and actually is one of my best friends Luke. He was a really fussy eater. I wouldn't eat anything and my mom. Once cooked couscous. Oh yeah. And she made him eat. And he was he was wretched. It he was telling the stories. I actually like couscous. No, it's just like, yeah, because you will fall spent it

Rick Denton: 30:32

This question elicits that answer 90% of the time. I didn't like it. Now I do and retching that comes up quite a bit. So closing out the first class lounge, what is one travel item not including your phone, that you will not leave home without

Jimmy Hosang: 30:48

Headphones. So I'm real. So I've got really, really bad about having to listen to people. And I know I like actually like I really like people. Like I'd like I said before about human to human like I do think human to human interactions are great, but having to spend kind of considerable amount of time at Nitin cotton flying through the air. When when these children screaming these people argue ID and the guy next to you snow and it's terrible. I just don't think I'd be able to cope if I had not taken my headphones.

Rick Denton: 31:31

Yeah, Jimmy, I've been on those flights to my noise canceling headphones are some of the best things that I ever wear on a trip. Now. I've looked at the clock here, I've enjoyed our conversation so much that we're almost out of time. And that's shocking me because there's so much more that I'd want to talk to you about. But let's close that with this I talk a ton about tone of voice of the customer that its voice, the customer is not just some quote popup survey, but rather it's a listen to all of the customer listening posts, and then act on what you learn. Now, that's easy to say. But at scale, that can be a real challenge. And I know that you help companies really get insights from their customers and their employees voices. How do you go about doing that?

Jimmy Hosang: 32:10

I think it's a, it's a kind of a, it's a four step process, I think for us. So I think, first of all, what we what we do is we go into go into companies, and we analyze all of the voice interactions and non vice if you want to look at chat bots and and async and things like that. And we have a process where we identify like, where there are issues and pain points and how you could restructure the conversations in a way to get better outcomes for your customer and better outcomes for the employee as well. What we then do is we completely redesign the scripts and the structures about how we want to interact with with customers. This can be things like removing bad words, like obviously, I'm basically because nothing's obvious and basic about some of the things that we're doing, or doing things that I'm really bad at like cognitive overload, so talking for too much, and not getting feedback from the customer. And so read, redesigning the scripts to make sure that we've got a good flow in the fluid. And also as well, making sure that we're doing the next best action for the customer. That could be upselling, cross selling, giving discounts and things like that, making those making sure those offers are going. The third bit is once we've designed a great experience, we monitor all of the conversations to make sure that those experiences are being delivered. So a really problematic issue is there's lots of great next best action tools and conversational guidance tools. But these, but unfortunately, they they're not constantly monitored, and therefore people don't do them. So the adherence to the experience is very, very important. And then the final bit is creating that feedback loop. Once we've identified people who are delivering the experience, great, we give them a pat on the back. But then also people who haven't been so great, we identify specifically what they're not doing particularly great at and giving them a digital kick up the bum, to do it to do it. And therefore that kind of creates the feedback loop where we listen up to learn to create value out of every conversation,

Rick Denton: 34:14

I value what you just said there because there's something that you said that caught me differently. And that was, and I know a lot of companies do this. But just the fact that you said it is the design up front of a great experience, then we're listening to that, that delivery, that experience. We're acting on what we hear and we're learning from what we hear, but I really appreciate that that and it reminds me of the beginning of our conversation, how about scripts and having those be well designed? And that focus on design? In addition to the Listen, act and learn that you described there, Jimmy that makes a ton of sense. How can folks get in touch with you? How can folks learn more about the modular analytics company? Where should they be looking to find more information?

Jimmy Hosang: 34:51

So to learn more about T Mac or the modular analytics company, you can go to our website which is tmac.ai. tmac.ai or you can follow me on LinkedIn. It's Jimmy Hosang. There's not a tremendous amount of them. Which Jimmy Hosang, Jimmy hos. Jimmy is analytics. And you can find me there.

Rick Denton: 35:12

Good. Okay. And I'll get all of that into the show notes. And I will tell folks, Jimmy and I have got not known each other for all that long. We were introduced by Paul banks, the bank CEO of LinkedIn. And but I've, I've come to find that Jimmy is a really good follow. So I do encourage you to go out there and follow me on LinkedIn. And certainly check out the modular analytics company if this is a space that you want to play in. Jimmy, thanks so much for taking the time to talk with me today. I've enjoyed so much. I enjoyed actually hearing a very, very contrarian perspective. But that's the value of conversations hearing other views. I enjoyed hearing certainly about the the crazy story in Tokyo, and then how your approach to customer experience. What a great conversation. I've enjoyed it. Jimmy, thank you so much for being on the show today.

Jimmy Hosang: 35:52

Thank you, Rick.

Rick Denton: 35:57

Thanks for joining us this week on CX Passport. Make sure to visit our website cxpassport.com where you can hit subscribe so you'll never miss a show. While you're at it, you can check out the rest of the EX4CX website. If you're looking to get real about customer experience, EX4CX is available to help you increase revenue by starting to listen to your customers and create great experiences for every customer every time. Thanks for listening to CX Passport and be sure to tune in for our next episode. Until next time, I'm Rick Denton, and I believe the best meals are served outside and require a passport.