Rick Denton: 0:05

You're listening to CX Passport, the show about creating great customer experiences with a dash of travel talk. Each episode we’ll talk with our guests about great CX, travel...and just like the best journeys, explore new directions we never anticipated. I'm your host Rick Denton. I believe the best meals are served outside and require a passport. Let's get going. ACF Fiorentina, Chelsea FC, AC Milan Barca PSG Bayern Munich I know there's a segment of listeners out there who know exactly what I'm talking about. For those of you who don't and wonder what jibberish I just uttered, those are some of the most visible and popular soccer or for today's guest football clubs in the world. I can assure you that someone who calls himself the CX goalkeeper is very familiar with those names. Today's guest Greg buglioni, aka the CX goalkeeper, takes that love of the beautiful game and brings it to the discipline of customer experience. A fellow podcaster now listeners hit pause, search up CX goalkeeper on your favorite podcast site, subscribe, and then come on back and hit play on this episode. Greg understands that it's not b2b, or b2c. But H to H, human to human. With Greg living in Switzerland, you know, I'm also excited to hear about his travel and global experiences, Greg, welcome to CX passport.

Greg Uglioni: 1:41

Rick, it's really a great pleasure and also to your audience. It's really a big, big pleasure to be here. And I am really thrilled to our discussion with you, you have an outstanding podcast, you are the doing outstanding things around customer experience, and therefore extremely keen to have this discussion with you. Thank you very much.

Rick Denton: 1:59

Well, my goodness, I feel so warm and excited. Let's just end the podcast there. Thank you, Greg. It's been nice talking with you.

Greg Uglioni: 2:05

It was a pleasure. Thank you very much.

Rick Denton: 2:07

Bye, bye. No, no, no way. Am I gonna let the CX goalkeeper leave that early? Greg. Let's actually explore CX goalkeeper a bit. How does football, Oregon from my American listeners or soccer apply to customer experience?

Greg Uglioni: 2:23

That's really a good, good question. And I want to be fully transparent from the beginning, I had a discussion with Jim Dawkins and everybody No, no SGEM doctrines if you are a bit in the customer experience field, and I had a chat with him and he told me you know, Greg, I am in the customer experience field and I love rocky music and therefore I'm the C x rock star now is working for a company for a big corporate, but he was the CX Rockstar and then I told him yes, but my passion is customer experience and his soccer and he said then, it's great then you have your match, now find find a story to tell to the world and he was really nice because he also at the beginning of his career he was also speaking about football or soccer and and he shared with me some ideas and I said at the end it's too weak I can be inspired by soccer and share my view on things because at the end we are a lot of people in customer experience and we are trying to spread the same things the same ideas on how to cope with transformation how to be customer centric and so on. And if I would be the next one bringing always the same example of outstanding company like Zappos Disney Amazon and so on. It's always the same story and therefore I said let's try to tell a story but a different one and it's clear not everything fit between customer experience and and and soccer but are quite quite a lot of things and if you want they can share one only to kick off to this

Rick Denton: 4:00

No I absolutely want to hear the how does it apply because I can start to envision some things but the CX goalkeeper clearly is someone who's going to know what the tie into soccer football and CX is so what is that tie How does that work?

Greg Uglioni: 4:14

Really extremely happy then please ladies and gentlemen plan the next five hours because I'm gonna speak for five hours joke by sight it's Maximum 90 minutes

Rick Denton: 4:26

well, I control the editing so haha

Greg Uglioni: 4:29

that's not no but back to soccer. You are always selecting the highlights and I want to share also with you only the highlights like after a soccer match. First of all, if we think about the customers in soccer, or defense and think about defense fans are emotionally involved in in what they are doing. They are spreading positive word of mouth every day for the team, even if they prefer team lost to match it. means they had a bad experience, and they continue sharing positive word of mouth. And they are spending quite a lot of money. Think about how much merchandise I bought from my preferred team, and how much I spent for tickets watching, watching deep. And I think quite a lot of businesses are dreaming of having customer like fans.

Rick Denton: 5:24

Yes, yeah, absolutely. That fan. You almost have a built in promoter, but they will always recommend that team to their, their friends and family for sure, won't they?

Greg Uglioni: 5:36

Exactly. I think that's that's what I'm always saying, I will promote my team forever if they win the championship if they win the Champions League, but even if they would lose all the matches, I am emotionally linked to them. And therefore I try to support them as much as possible.

Rick Denton: 5:54

How do you see the players I'm wondering about the players on the field or on the pitch, I'm still learning but players on the pitch? How would you describe them in the context of customer experience as they weave together?

Greg Uglioni: 6:08

I think for me, it's quite clear, and everybody has a different style, but they are the employees based based on the fact that you are mentioning that really summarize to the maximum, you have 11 players on the pitch, and they have all together the same target to win the match. They know if the target to win the match, I cannot win low or there are really a small, small amount of players that they can that can win the match alone. But normally, they win together, they are helping each other. And therefore the coach select the best sweet players to win the game based on the competitors. Think about doing exactly the same in business. Instead of having the accounting department, the finance department, the contact center department, the marketing department, you take all the best people, the best player, the best employees from these teams, you put them together to achieve one common goal in our customer experience language, for example, to optimize one journey, not only in the run the business, but also in the change to business, then you have one super motivated team from all the different departments that are enabled and empower to achieve something think about adding this opportunity.

Rick Denton: 7:30

Yeah, and you know, I like the way you're talking about the 11 players, because especially well actually in almost any sport. But I think about soccer or football, you specifically, you think of those 11 players, you've got somebody as distinct as the goalkeeper, who is there to do their role, all the way up to the striker who is there to do their role, yet the midfielders, all of all of these different roles. And yet, you said something that caught my ear. And that is, but they all have one target. Now, not every single one of them. And okay, sometimes it happens, but not every single one of them will actually put the ball in the net. But their role is to help build to a scenario that the person who does put the ball in the net is successful at putting the ball in the net. And so they all in spite of what their role is, will have that same one target that one objective that really does, I would imagine that does resonate with business.

Greg Uglioni: 8:18

Exactly. Because think about the different department adding different targets. It's like it's the same, if we tell to the midfield players, you need to run as much as possible, they could run around 10 2040 kilometers or once, and they would achieve their goal, but they didn't win the match. And therefore thinking about different departments ever adding different targets, it doesn't really make sense because we know that marketing needs to improve acquisition. The operations contact center needs to decrease cost risk needs to to control all the risk. But these are conquering targets. And therefore you need to define which goal is the most important. And then you need to enable the team to empower the team to achieve this overarching goal that it's in our words, achieving a better experience for our customer.

Rick Denton: 9:12

Yeah, I like that. And even if they do, because sometimes those goals, there's a reason to have these individual department goals, like you said, marketing and sales acquisition or whatever it might be. Right, there's that part. But it's all tied to the game is only won or lost. And soccer football is particularly painful in this regard, actually, by the number of goals that go in versus the number of the goals that go against. It is amazing how many matches I've seen where the team dominates possession dominates, pick your metric that you might use. And yet the only one that matters is goals. It's it. I think your CX goalkeeper really, really does apply in an amazing way here. Now let me let me pull this off the pitch a bit here because I think we could spend the whole episode talking about that. But I want to talk to you about something you said as well. You mentioned transformation and it is such a hot word right now. transformation. It can be organizational transformation, digital transformation experience transformation, there's so many categories. But I'm curious what transformation means to you, when you use that phrase, especially in the context of customer experience.

Greg Uglioni: 10:14

I think, and I could start mentioning the pillars defined by quarter the 11 different pillars, but I think that's not something that you can read somewhere. And therefore, I try to bring my view on that, if we're speaking about transformation, it's always related to people, people are in the one status, and we need to bring them to another one. And therefore, and this change is difficult, I think we all agree, change is extremely difficult. And therefore, it's important to involve people from the beginning, try to explain them, why we are doing why we are doing this transformation, why is it relevant, on a positive way, in a positive way you can do that explaining afterwards will be everything better, or in a negative way you say, if you are not moving, if you are not changing, then we will be not in business. And therefore, I think the key is always thinking about people.

Rick Denton: 11:12

So that in that element of bringing them in from the beginning, especially in some difficult transformations, right? There, there's a tendency I've seen in companies to somewhat hide that information to perhaps not involve the employees and I realized certain things, but just by nature, let's say it's a merger and acquisition. And there's certain reasons you have to keep things more secret than others, but in a general sort of change. What is it about companies that, you know, hesitate to bring that to the employees? And how have you sort of helped drive making sure that is in front of the employees that they understand the why how do you get that out there, that, that why and and and though the key elements of change, to help bring that employee along.

Greg Uglioni: 11:57

Also, they're, I think, extremely important is to match and to align what is top management expectation from the boards, together with the employees expectation, okay. And I often share the story. And it's a real story. And it's my real story. You know, I worked at Accenture, one of the biggest consulting company. And as a young consultant, you are allowed to speak with a C suite, and you will depict slides, and this is the transformation, these are the plan. And we do this in depth. And I did that also in one company. And then I went to the contact center manager, and I told him now we start doing the transformation. And he said, Stop, stop, stop. This is what you see on your slides and what you're discussing in the boardrooms. Now you come together with me, we go into the call center, you sit next to an employee, and you listen to the calls, and you really try to listen, what are the issues of the customer calling us and afterwards you tell me if what you depicted is really funny. Yeah, and, and it was art school, but it was the reality, you discuss on one side about, we need a new app with his fancy products with this fancy feature and so on. And on the other side, you have the customer that is not able to come on to into your website is not finding the information and therefore needs to call you. The customer needs to wait 20 minutes in the waiting line is completely unhappy because he was required to wait 20 minutes, and the employee needs to use 15 different system to change the address.

Rick Denton: 13:35

Yeah, yeah, what a what a truism that we need to make sure and keep that frontline or to learn from what the frontline is experiencing. And when we talk about that frontline, what's so vital is how many companies fail to do exactly what that person brought you to do. And that was just come here and experience come here and listen, and kind of walk me through that experience. Greg a little bit deeper. What were some of the things that you discovered by sitting there with the frontline the agents on the phone that you didn't know ahead of time that were a bit of a surprise to you? What were some of your discoveries as you went through that?

Greg Uglioni: 14:13

It's It's strange to say but you design an experience and then customer goes through this experience, right? They're not doing what you expect.

Rick Denton: 14:24

Funny That Way, right?

Greg Uglioni: 14:25

Exactly. This is extremely difficult to understand. Because if you are and the credit conditioner was quiet, Inside Out focus, we know our business, we know what our customer needs, then to change this mindset. For example, introducing voice of the customer, okay, solution. This is what what we did and and it helps really to try to understand and to create awareness around what were really the issue that our customer were facing. And we and quite a lot of companies were extremely product focused, we need to improve this product, we need to improve this feature and so on. But related to the product, it's also all the experiences that the customer are adding are feeling and trying to solve issues, because you can have the best possible product on the market, speaking about credit cards with the right feature with the right insurance, and so on, and then you go to the shop, and the cart is not working, right. And these are the experiences that our customer were facing, they forgot their PIN code, and they were not able to use the card they were not. For example, not all the cards were accepted around the world, if you're speaking about American Express, the acceptance of American Express outside of the states, it's not so big, okay? And, and therefore. And therefore, these are really the basic issues that our customer were facing. And for me, but also for the company was important to understand, let's first fix the basics. And then start speaking about delighting customer creating wow experience, and all this stuff. But first of all, it's important to manage the basics and adding a running system that works properly, and enable a consistent super experience.

Rick Denton: 16:22

You know, I'm thinking back to your football analogy, right. And some of what you just said certainly applies there, it's really great if you can design a phenomenal set piece, something really exceptional on a corner or a free kick, that surprise letter uses surprises and delights your fans into a goal. But if you haven't gotten the basics of just being able to pass between two players, and making sure that your touch, when the keeper kicks it halfway down the field that you can actually get that ball and secure that ball and secure possession. And that you've got a very thoughtful approach to how you're going to defend if there's an overlap or those kind of basics. It really doesn't matter how fancy your set piece is, what matters is your basics. And taking that to the credit card example you're describing there, get some of those basics in play. And when you had the opportunity to sit there and listen to the front line. And then I imagine the company listening to them the voice of the customer through the front line, some of those basics and those basic needs come to mind, as opposed to the really fancy things that perhaps a marketing team or a product team might want to design. Let's get the basics right first, I'm with you there, Greg, for sure.

Greg Uglioni: 17:31

And think about trying to delight your customer, but in soccer, and you start the game losing three zero, yeah.

Rick Denton: 17:39

But you've got a really, really cool corner kick. That's great. But you're losing three to zero.

Greg Uglioni: 17:45

Exactly. Or they played very well. But they lost three

Rick Denton: 17:48

zero. Yeah, exactly. And that hurts

Greg Uglioni: 17:51

therefore, exactly. First, it's really the basics needs to work properly. And afterwards, then you can start trying to delight the customer. And there are quite a lot of examples. Because at the end, really, the basics should work properly. And then you can start thinking about everything around. And the basics need to consistently work. And then you can strategically delight your customer. When you're winning to zero, then you can start doing a strain the different corner click or score this patient goals and stuff like that. Right? First of all scored the goals that you need.

Rick Denton: 18:27

For it's so true. You know, the word delight comes to mind. And that you just said there and we I did mention that I'm talking to you in Switzerland right now. Well, I'm not in Switzerland, sadly. But you're in Switzerland. And I've had the chance to go there. Although it was a long time ago. 1995. So it's that long ago. But I remember it is one of the most beautiful places in the world. But for you it's home. So I'm curious thinking of Switzerland or maybe even outside of Switzerland in that area. What are some of the stories from travels you've had in that region or even beyond?

Greg Uglioni: 19:00

You know, for me, it's always related to my family I travel with I love to travel with with my wife and thinking about one, one. This is the running gag with with my wife. We went to Italy and it was really nice hotel. It's not five star it was three star or two stars. And it was really nice. We went there, right weather and so on. And then the lady at the desk told us Oh, you reserved your dinner for eight o'clock and say yes, we will go for dinner at eight o'clock. And then we do all the paperwork. We created everything. And then she told us your dinner was reserved for eight o'clock. And we said yes, it's understood.

Rick Denton: 19:49

Thank you.

Greg Uglioni: 19:51

And after there was a really we moved to the to the elevator. She brought us to the elevator and she said Do you remember your dinner Estate? is the clock. Okay? We went into into the room and it's not a joke. They when the phone rang, you know, your dinner is at eight o'clock and it was 4pm. We had plenty of time. And this is the running gag when I asked my wife, when do we have dinner? Or she asked me to clock.

Rick Denton: 20:22

Now, Greg, you've got to tell me that at the end of that story, did you make dinner by eight o'clock?

Greg Uglioni: 20:27

Sure. And it was a nice dinner, but we were quite stressed to be really on time.

Rick Denton: 20:34

It I wonder if there was some cultural differences there that you were dealing with a culture that was very time punctual. And they perhaps perceive that you might not be a time punctual couple, I don't know. But that's a very, very important eight o'clock.

Greg Uglioni: 20:48

But these are big. This is the big difference. Because normally, in Swiss people are really punctual. And we presented ourselves as Swiss people, and therefore it should us at eight o'clock, then we are there, five to eight, it's not quarter past eight or something like that. And therefore it was really strange. But for us, it's the running gag.

Rick Denton: 21:13

Greg, what a great story, finding yourself at dinner, I hope that you can have both those dinners that are punctual on time when you want them to be. But then also, I remember some glorious dinners that I've had, I'm thinking about some overlooking the Tuscan countryside. Whereas just hey, at your table for the night, you stay here as long as you want as little as you want, just have a great meal. But that's the beauty of these kind of travels. Now. I do know one thing about travel, it can be exhausting at times. And so it's important to get a little lounge action from time to time. So how about you join me here in the first class lounge, we'll move quickly here and have a little fun, what is a dream travel location from your past?

Greg Uglioni: 21:51

Ah...it was Mauritius

Rick Denton: 21:53

Oh, tell me about that.

Greg Uglioni: 21:56

And that was simple. And again for me and I hope that you understand that then you are feeling that I am really focused on people and for me, Mauritius was something I was I was dreaming of, and I am really happy that my wife was also dreaming of and therefore we decided to spend our honeymoon in Mauritius. First of all, we went to Dubai, we spent three days there and then we fly to Mauritius. And and this was really a dream vacation for us.

Rick Denton: 22:26

Man, I've heard such good things about it. It's a it's an exotic destination I have to be there sometime. Well and so what about what about for you? What is a dream travel location? That's your future that you've not been to yet?

Greg Uglioni: 22:38

This is a good question. And it's also linked to the past a while

Rick Denton: 22:43

Tell me about that. I haven't been to Hawaii in a long while I'm tell you 2001 So it's been a while Tell me about it. What draws you there?

Greg Uglioni: 22:51

Magnum PI

Rick Denton: 22:55

well I guess whatever markets if the Hawaii Tourism Board is using Magnum P I

Greg Uglioni: 22:59

that was really really a big a big dream because I was watching this this movies and and I was always thinking that they're it's really neat to need to be really nice. And it was in the younger age and therefore I was dreaming of flying there

Rick Denton: 23:14

very nice. Now let me ask you this Magnum P I the current version of it, or the one from the 80s

Greg Uglioni: 23:19

Tom Selleck. Thomas. I like to do it.

Rick Denton: 23:23

For my listeners, because this is an audio podcast. Greg has not gone all the way he does not have the big Tom Selleck mustache don't worry. But he is I can tell that he's ready to head to Hawaii given the grin that I'm seeing. What is a favorite thing of yours to eat?

Greg Uglioni: 23:38

Oh, this is this is really a difficult question because you know, I Am athletes and I'm Italian and therefore I like I really like and enjoy having dinner together with my family. But I try to reduce it to two different dishes. One is sushi. And the other one sorry I need to say that it's spaghetti.

Rick Denton: 23:59

Have a look. You don't need to apologize for that at all spaghetti is good now don't combine spaghetti and sushi but yes, the two are wonderful things now let's go the other way. What is the thing your parents forced you to eat? But you hated as a kid?

Greg Uglioni: 24:13

Oh, this is the story and I think your audience will laugh for the next few minutes. I don't like spinach or I didn't like spinach and and my mother told me these are green spaghetti and therefore I ate them

Rick Denton: 24:30

what a brilliant... parents are amazing how we will lie to our children and it works. Who knows maybe with your your child you will be talking about green spaghetti as well. That may be one of your tips. Let's go back to travel let's close out here the first class lounge what is one travel item not including your phone that you will not leave home without

Greg Uglioni: 24:52

it's it's my cap. It's really I always ever kept. It's not to advertise my podcast you already did that but When I'm going on vacation I always ever kept with me

Rick Denton: 25:10

Greg, I love the idea of the cap as my I am, by the way, listeners, I'm not suggesting this is why Greg is wearing a cap. But for me, I too have to always be somewhat aware of my hat because, well, I don't have quite as much hair on the head. And I'm finding myself sunburned there more than I like to be sunburned. So the cap does become particularly important in certain destinations, like Arizona or others that have a lot of sun. You know, one thing I noticed, Greg in your LinkedIn profile when we were getting to know each other is and I referenced it in the introduction, but you said it's not about b2b or b2c, we are in an H two h, human to human environment. I love it, I really want you to expand on it, what does that mean to you?

Greg Uglioni: 25:54

I think throughout my career, I had the chance and the opportunity to speak really, with a lot of people to see a lot of different projects and and so on. And we do you can discuss about the targets the matrix and how you measure transformations and but at the end, it starts and it ends with, with with human beings, we are all human beings, we are for example, forgetting that when we start working, we are also customers, right? When, and we have different roles, I am a father, I work therefore I am a manager or a leader, and I have different talk. But at the end, we are always human beings. And we should never forget that we are human beings. Basically, for me, it's also important and this is something that I didn't set but I when I listened to that I said yes, that's the truth is who we are in the field of customer experiences, customer are human beings and experiences are human. And therefore my focus, switch from technology, process methodologies, and so on to the human. And if you focus to them, and you create this coalition, you create a great team back to the to the to the sport, and to the soccer team, then you can really win the championship,

Rick Denton: 27:15

that that focus on human is so important. And I've actually had a guest that I think the timing will work out that it's the episode prior to yours Ferran out of Dubai. And he talks about we should stop calling it customer experience, we should call it human experience. And and everybody should do hashtag h x and those sorts of things, and whether that catches on or not. But the point is still important that it's focusing on the human. I think that's where even that's the story that you told back in your days at Accenture being, hey, let's go listen to the frontline that humanizes it, you're not looking at scorecards, you're not looking at dashboards of a bunch of metrics. Or, you know, the customer's averaged into one score, but rather, each individual customer has their own individual experience. And that that forcible choice to think human helps me as an individual helps teams helps companies, think of the humans that are being supported by the business decisions that are being made. I love that approach that you're making, Greg by saying, Hey, we're in a human to human environment. I want to, as I kind of cheat and look to the side here, I see that we're nearing the end of time. So I want to close out kind of linking those thoughts together with a current experience of yours, you're helping transform employee experience at a well known Hospital in your area. And and we all know that employee experience is a key factor of customer experience. So let's, let's talk about that, in that context of human to human. How do you think about employee experience? And how do you help transform employee experience?

Greg Uglioni: 28:45

This is a great question. And as you mentioned, I started working in hospital. And therefore it's really the beginning of the transformation. My my boss started a bit earlier than me, but I started first of December. And I'm really trying to understand what drives people in their business life. Why are there and there are really great stories I was speaking with, with physicians, and they told me, you know, for me, I am really motivated, and I want to spend my time together with the patients. And this is, for me, the most important thing to work with them. But I understand that we need to change because I don't have enough time to spend or to invest with each patient. And therefore if you from this transformation can help us investing our time in a better way together with the patients, then we can really understand them better and we can add them better. And therefore also there for me, the first thing is to listen. And then when I get enough information then to start trying to use these methodologies that well known methodologies like Patient Experience employee experience the design of the different journeys and creating new new journeys for them. But now for me, it's time to listen we have two ears, one mouth, and therefore I try to listen twice as much as I am speaking, and really trying to motivate the people. We have this this this V, this our vision is we simplify life of employees and of our patient. And their it's our focus our we can simplify life and explaining to everybody working there, why we are doing that we are going to simplify your life and do is one

Rick Denton: 30:38

that simplification, it's so important. You you even alluded to it back in the Accenture story, when you talked about a customer calling in and the employee has to go to 15 different screens to find information. Yeah, that kind of simplifying the employee experience the physician experience, the nurse practitioner experience, the radiology tech experience all of those employees, the the simpler that it is made for them that the business the bureaucracy of medicine is made simple for them, then they can turn their energy not to how on earth do I fill in this chart, but instead listening and caring for the human that is there at great need? Alright, if you're in a hospital, you're typically at great need. And you want a human interacting with you, not just some employee robot. And I think there's a lot to that, I think, I hope that you and I can continue to stay in touch as you go through this journey with the hospital experience, because I think that's going to provide some really interesting stories of how you've made lives better for the physicians, the nurses, the techs, and then how in turn that made it better for the patients as well.

Greg Uglioni: 31:42

I think this is the value added of our community, the customer experience community that we help each other. And we try to explain the others what we are doing why we are doing our we are doing that, and then we can grow together. And at the end, if I make a mistake, why should you do exactly? It's a mistake mistake, I can tell you pay attention. I did this and that and they didn't work in my case. Perhaps you can you can learn something from from what I'm doing.

Rick Denton: 32:08

Yeah, man. Great. I hate this. We're out of time. But we are at a time. So thank you so much today. I love that we started CX goalkeeper, right talking about the CX goalkeeper getting a sense of how that applies that the sport of football, the sport of soccer, how that applies to customer experience, walking me through all of your transformation experiences. Certainly, I hope that you have dinner at eight o'clock tomorrow night. I hope that that happens. For sure. And then closing out with the human, the human to human the patient experience describing the hospital so beautiful. I think there's so much that we can learn there. There's a lot that people might want to learn from you or hear from you. How can people get in touch with you? How can they hear CX goalkeeper? How can they get in touch with you?

Greg Uglioni: 32:48

Easiest way is LinkedIn, you can find me on LinkedIn. Or you can use my websites www.cxgoalkeeper.com. And if you add slash podcast then you will find also my podcast.

Rick Denton: 33:02

Awesome. I'll get all of that into the show notes so that if you're listening to this now don't have to write it down. Just scroll down and you can take a look there at the show notes and be able to access Greg's contact information the best way to get in touch with Greg, thank you so much today, I wish you all the success on the in your world on the CX pitch going forward.

Greg Uglioni: 33:21

Thank you very much, Rick. It was really a great, great pleasure. Thank you very much for the invitation. I really enjoyed this travel together with you this journey together with you and I hope that the audience can learn something from what we discussed.

Rick Denton: 33:38

Thanks for joining us this week on CX Passport. Make sure to visit our website cxpassport.com where you can hit subscribe so you'll never miss a show. While you're at it, you can check out the rest of the EX4CX website. If you're looking to get real about customer experience, EX4CX is available to help you increase revenue by starting to listen to your customers and create great experiences for every customer every time. Thanks for listening to CX Passport and be sure to tune in for our next episode. Until next time, I'm Rick Denton, and I believe the best meals are served outside and require a passport.