Rick Denton: 0:05

You're listening to CX Passport, the show about creating great customer experiences with a dash of travel talk. Each episode we’ll talk with our guests about great CX, travel...and just like the best journeys, explore new directions we never anticipated. I'm your host Rick Denton. I believe the best meals are served outside and require a passport. Let's get going. Journeys should be managed, like products, open the LinkedIn profile of today's guest, and that's the beginning of his description. What would that mean? What does that look like? We're gonna find out today on CX passport as we head back to the Netherlands to talk with Jochem van der Veer, the co founder and CEO of they do, they do improves the world of journey mapping moving companies from journey mapping to journey management. Talking about customer journey mapping is almost like breathing for those of us in the customer experience world. I bet most of us myself included approach it almost reflexively akin to breathing oxygen for experience design. That's why I'm particularly intrigued to hear how many yo cam approaches journey mapping, overall customer experience and how to improve this space. Interestingly enough, the company was founded starting as a fully remote company right from the beginning. I think that might have some good travel stories. You bet it does. We're definitely gonna explore how remote life work life, home life and travel life all weaved together for Joachim, we're gonna have a fun ride today. He'll come Welcome to CX passport.

Jochem van der Veer: 1:38

Rick, pleasure to be here. And thanks for having me.

Rick Denton: 1:41

It's gonna be fun. Let's start with the phrase I mentioned in the intro. Journeys should be managed like products. Let's pull up that thread. Tell me what you mean by that phrase.

Jochem van der Veer: 1:52

I think I can best explain that with a with a little backstory of how we started the company because I've a background in interaction design. And yeah, if you're working interaction design UX design, then technically, you're part of customer experience work all the time, right. So when we were before we started the product company that day to is today, we were actually like a CX SWAT team, we went into large fortune 500 type of organizations. And then we help those teams to really set up a customer centric, we're working, taking into account, you know, design thinking human centered design principles, processes, and really coached them to start working in this fashion. One of the tools we use all the time was the customer journey, right. And back in the days even before COVID, we were just you know, driving around with a trunk full of brown papers posted and helping those teams to structure interviews their data, making those first messy journeys. And at the end of the week, or at the end of the research, we presented this big, sometimes even mostly designed journey as the end result, or at least cumulative insights, mapping of whatever project we were doing. And those teams and the leadership teams or even the board would stand around these journeys, massive impact on their ideas of what their business was about. And on Monday, it was business as usual again, and we would start a new project. So we figured this is a great model to consult and to work in different pricing at the same time. But the journey itself is such a powerful tool to align teams across different verticals across different business units or departments. But it's flat, it's one dimensional. So we figured out if there is a better platform to support journeys, so we can work with our clients at the same time, in those journeys, assign priorities, figure out the opportunities, and then align what the teams are busy with or working on. That will be amazing. Let's you know, acquire two for the agency. And lo and behold, there was nothing, you know, all the mapping tools out there, right? There's a lot of mapping tools, visualization tools, and today we do it in the whiteboards but it's still flat one dimensional. But we figured if there's a way to use journeys as the way you align, prioritize, and know who's working on what's all to manage, and work as one to manage the customer experience, you're going to do a great job in delivering those CX goals, because CX is the strategy today. And that's what led us to start building journeys, our journey management in day two and yeah, like my intro reads, I believe you should manage journeys the way you already manage products. Yeah, that's ongoing continuous, you have a whole process around, you know, working from insight to implementation, but you do that from the customer's perspective, not from a feature perspective.

Rick Denton: 4:37

Yeah. So let's let's actually pull even further on that manage like product because that I now understand a little more about, hey, you were just trying to do journey mapping, you realized it was broken. I gotta tell you, as a customer experience person, I don't go into journey mapping, thinking it's broken, which is sort of myopic, but I see that you had that fix. You've got this idea. Tell me more about that. Fix how this is really manage like products? What's different from that flat that you described to what you're describing as the way to do it now?

Jochem van der Veer: 5:07

Yeah, so first of all, maybe you know, there's there's some granularity and what we define as a journey for success. Maybe what you would define as a customer lifecycle, because the way we approach it, and I bet a lot of you know, your listeners, and maybe yourself do it as well as like, because it's such a tedious process to get everything in place, you tend to make it as big as you can go. And probably that's like spanning the whole customer lifecycle,

Rick Denton: 5:31

True end to end

Jochem van der Veer: 5:32

end to end. And that's the journey. But from the customer's perspective, that is not the journey at all, the you know, you have all these different interactions with a brand with a product, you buy something, you don't use it, you use it again, recommend it or not, or, you know, there's all these different use case for your digital product, or just some shampoo did a little different. Different, but you know, our customers like you know, we work with Johnson and Johnson chiton, transforming healthcare, or NCR, which has like immense features around payment solutions. But on that on the other end of the spectrum, we have debt lessons who make software, right, so everyone's thinking and working on journeys, and what the journey is, is different for everyone. But if you only have one journey, which is the end to end lifecycle, you either go like, super broad, and it doesn't do anything or you go too granular and you lose everyone who's not being part of creating that journey in the first place. Because there's like so detail. So the lifecycle is a great way to think about a framework of journeys, but in the lifecycle, there's all these different smaller journeys basically going from where people actually do things in one go almost. And most of our customers have hundreds, sometimes even dozens or hundreds stretch, right? So journeys are a great way to understand what a customer that's step by step and allow teams to say okay, marketing has influence here. Here's some email that gets triggered. And here's a feature they interact with ultimately buying a product that gets shipped to their home and then they, you know, use the product. So from all different angles of the business, we together work as one to create that journey.

Your CX Passport Captain: 7:09

This is your captain speaking. I want to thank you for listening to CX Passport today. We’ve now reached our cruising altitude so I’ll turn that seatbelt sign off. While you’re getting comfortable, hit that Follow or Subscribe button in your favorite podcast app so you never miss an episode. I’d love it if you’d tell a friend about CX Passport and leave a review so that others can discover the show as well. Now, sit back and enjoy the rest of the episode.

Rick Denton: 7:36

Journey is clearly coming up a lot. Right? It's the the theme. It'll certainly be the theme of this episode. I've got to imagine. But I know you've said this. You said a lot of companies strive to be customer centric or and in my opinion, well, they claim to strive to be customer centric, but you want companies to go a step further. I think you've kind of alluded to this already, but to be journey centric. Help me understand what do you mean by being journey centric?

Jochem van der Veer: 8:02

So, like you said, everyone is customer centric, right. customer centricity is a no brainer. It's 2022. Is that as well?

Rick Denton: 8:10

Are they say they are? Right?

Jochem van der Veer: 8:12

Yeah, right. Right. That's that's what we are called TheyDo, right. It's not what customers say it's what they do. We believe that it's actions that speak and in want to depict the journey. And I basically see that the journeys or the organization that were journey centric, or just more effective in aligning are just more effective in decision making, do it faster and are together working on those journeys, instead of saying no marketing has this journey. And a product feature team has that journey. And yeah, that kind of overlap, but nobody cares. Because you know, we're working on our own thing. No, there's a shared journey. And there's opportunities in there for different teams. And we are, you know, building features, we are delivering campaigns, and we're focusing on I don't know, the internal communication, or maybe maybe like the consumer oriented communication, like emails or in app notifications. Together, we support that journey. So we just see that the journey centric company is more effective than, you know, the PowerPoint, strategic, customer centric company, who does a lot of blah, blah, and you know, has NPS is the highest metric. But in a sense, essential workflows is not customer centric at all. Because you measure something like NPS doesn't mean customer centric,

Rick Denton: 9:28

right. And I want to talk about that a little bit later. Because, you know, we're talking about the theory it I guess, some of the application of it, right? How do we become journey centric? How do we not do the old way of customer journey mapping, but rather these inner woven approaches that they do encourages and pivot to action. But I've been at this conversation long enough that I just can't wait any longer to ask you about some of the travel stuff. And I know that when you and I talked, you talked about you started this company fully remote from the beginning, it was an exclusively remote company and that has seems to have created some unique opportunities for your employees but you as well. Now, you mentioned a recent trip to Tulum, Mexico. What was that experience like?

Jochem van der Veer: 10:08

Oh, it was a well deserved holiday after being at home for a long while, because of COVID. We did travel a little bit, but not that much. I have two little kids. So we thought, let's go somewhere sunny in the winter, and Amsterdam is quite cold you can imagine. So, yeah, we took a trip to Tulum, Mexico to have a family holiday. And actually, I had the pleasure of with my wife staying there and enjoying it so much that when Holland announced that there would end in second lockdown, or would continue to lock down as it was, there was really no point in going back. So we were having tickets you could extend, we booked through KLM was easy to extend. We obviously always put our home on Airbnb. So I had a little side income here nice and extended the trip. So we stayed there two months I was with my laptop and just work there. And it was such a joyful experience to see the kids thrive to, you know, have the luxury to be on a beach at night. And then to work in the day was a little challenging with the timezone. Because as a CEO, it's not the best place to be behind on your team, but on the other hand, was definitely worth it. Yeah, so yeah, that is, that is what I want for for all of us to be doing. Plus we have a lot of customers in the US. So that was convenient, because you're in the same timezone.

Rick Denton: 11:34

Hey, yeah, you could actually give them some some real time No, no timezone challenge there that work from anywhere model. So that was delightful for y'all. You went for a holiday and you ended up staying for a work period of time. I've gotta imagine that's been attractive to your employees as well, the has that helped you attract talent? Are there challenges with remote work? How are you seeing that in your company?

Jochem van der Veer: 11:57

Well, I believe that if you don't have a full remote policy, then you're missing out on talent. That's that's where the market is today. I mean, COVID has clearly showed that that is a wonderful way to work. And there's a lot of people that are great self managed individuals who benefit from working wherever they are. Besides the times on difficulties that you might encounter, I think we're, yeah, we're doing a great job not only because we're building an innovative product people actually love and division is pretty, you know, audacious, so that attracts talent. But on the other hand, yeah, we can't compete with the salaries of the Meirelles of this world yet. So remote is a big perk, our recent hire last week, we hired a new engineer, and one of the things he loves is like, I like to travel not too long, I have a base in Romania. But I like to be here and there two weeks at a time, I like to see whole Europe. And if I join your company, I can combine the two things I can work in. He was in Norway when we hired him. I don't know where he is today. But I guess it will be somewhere next week. And that's very easy, you know, if you the only requirement we have is that you find places with a proper internet connection because otherwise people get locked in that's not so nice. But other than that, I think the best work can be done wherever you are

Rick Denton: 13:19

you kind of I think that is very true for so many companies the ability to attract talent, the quality of talent, you're attacking the globe there with that, but also that delight that you're describing of the employee being able to say you know what, I'm gonna be here this week and it doesn't matter I'm gonna be there this week. Now with all that hear in there you flying from the Netherlands to Tulum and all that, gotta imagine that sometimes it's nice to take a break and hit the lounge. And so that's what we're going to do here we're going to hit the first class lounge join me here we'll move quickly and have a little fun here. What is a dream travel location from your past?

Jochem van der Veer: 13:53

Oh, it was Bali because it's like similar to Tulum super nice environment and we're gonna go there again this year.

Rick Denton: 14:00

Why does Bali keep coming up and I obvious Bali keeps coming up as a dreamlike creation from people's past because it's wonderful and amazing. But it rubs salt in my wounds because I haven't been there yet. And I just get so jealous with every guest that I hear about Bali and I cannot wait to go there. So in that vein, what's a dream travel vacation you've not been to yet that you're eagerly waiting to go to?

Jochem van der Veer: 14:24

It's a bit cold, but I would love to go to Lapland one day.

Rick Denton: 14:28

Say that again. And I want to know a little bit more about it.

Jochem van der Veer: 14:32

So it's where the Arctic lights or the Northern Lights can be seen like in the top of Norway like you're sort of near the Arctic Circle. You know, sled riding reindeer thingy with the with the dogs. That kind of experience I don't know my kids need to be a little bit older I guess to take them but I would like to do that.

Rick Denton: 14:51

I have a friend of mine, who just he's lived kind of all over but lived in New York. Forget some I lived in Texas. As he now moved his family to France, and I saw some recent pictures where they went if not that specific area, but the Northern Lights and it just was stunning. How beautiful that must be. Now you're right a little bit cold. I'm a Texan. And so it could be a little hard for me to do that. I may have to bundle up but that does sound really delightful. What is a favorite thing for you to eat?

Jochem van der Veer: 15:22

Pasta, any shape

Rick Denton: 15:26

Any any pasta? No specific one?

Jochem van der Veer: 15:29

Well, I look if you really want to drill down to the details. Spaghetti is my favorite. Yeah. And then really like classic Bolin? Yes. I love it. But I tend to get creative. So any pasta goes?

Rick Denton: 15:40

I like that. That one comes up quite a bit too. I'm a big fan of the past. And now let's go the other way. What is the thing your parents forced you to eat? But you hated as a kid?

Jochem van der Veer: 15:50

Yeah, well, that was not much. But what I had to drink was rather there was like this Niecy lane, I don't know what that will be in English, we need to put it in the show notes. There's like a little, you've got a cold or a flu. That would get you better. It's like a homeopathic thing else. I don't know the taste of it. It's not even that disgusting. But the taste of it is just bad memories all over.

Rick Denton: 16:13

It is funny how some of those home remedies are just horrible memories. And we wonder did they really help? But who knows. But our parents gave it to us for sure. What is with your travels? What is one travel item not including your phone, of course that you will not leave home without

Jochem van der Veer: 16:30

my kids know my kids, it may be a little left field. answer but I know a lot of my peers people I know that go on, you know these nice big holidays like Bali or two lumen and they leave their little kids to leave their little kids home. But the joy of being there together and figuring out what life's like and doing that I wouldn't have even considered leaving them at home. And I'll take them as small as they are as big as they are to wherever we go.

Rick Denton: 17:02

I know that this podcast will be audio only when it's released. But you saw my jaw drop with that answer that is one of the most brilliant answers I've ever heard. My kids. I love that spirit. Now my wife and I we do similar my kids are much older, I've got one in university, I've got one that's just a couple of years away from university. So I'm on the other end of child raising spectrum in New York. But even when they were younger, we really did try to make sure that our travels included them now there was also time for mom and dad to go away and be away from kids. But to let our kids have that same love of the globe, the exploration, the desire to seek other cultures love that that was your answer. Like really, my jaw dropped. It was awesome.

Jochem van der Veer: 17:42

And I'm I'm seeing my kids, and I'm so happy to do that.

Rick Denton: 17:46

Even better. Another great reason to do the work from anywhere. Right? Let's, let's go back to the work world. I'd love to stay until noon. But I do have some other work questions that I really want to hear from you. So I know that when we talk about old school journey mapping or even the new approach you bring there is zero value. If all that work stays in the conference room. Nifty, right? You've got this binder or this digital set of files that have information, but nobody does anything with how do you help companies take that, and then move them to action or even one step further from action to real business value.

Jochem van der Veer: 18:22

And that is the challenge that we're building software for to solve. So I don't think we have cracked it entirely. But let me take a stab at what we have achieved. And what we see is successful in those organizations. Okay, so board level CX customer experience. That's the strategy as far as it goes, right? Right. Some companies don't even make that actionable. So like CX is the strategy. You don't even say what that is. But it's a different discussion. But let's say you have an actionable strategy in place, then you believe journeys are the way to align those teams and you want to work across teams with journey. So that is one place. So how are you going to operationalize that. And I think that is the big challenge for a lot of organizations that want to go from mapping to management where mapping used to be like, creating overview, showing insights. And I'll go step by step in improving the customer experience. So typical thing we see is to map out the current state or the as is state and then map out the future state, the desired state of customer journey, right and the delta is what you're going to work on. I don't believe that's a very useful thing to do. Some of our customers have put that into practice successfully. But as you have like hundreds of journeys, that that starts to break down. So I believe that journey is the truth. And maybe this is a nice, nice thing also for a little understanding is like when you think about I think about product management you have you have the workflow, right, you have let's say to DJI rise or to DevOps as your DevOps of this role, or like your sprints, your epics, your product increments and your portfolio management gets done. And then there's the reality the truth, you have a website and application or mobile app or whatever, and it's just like products. So you have two things, you have the reality the product, you can tinker with it, Tinker, read it, you can go in there, you can see how it feels and what the experience is like, and the workflow. So, Experience Management is about emotion, it's about people, it's about how they feel interacting with your brand, what what your company makes them experience when they interact with your product or service, or when they use your product or service. So using journeys to recreate that reality, to show what the journey is like and then put those journeys, like I said, in a framework to show the whole customer lifecycle, for instance, is basically recreating reality. So once you have that in place, then you want to start looking into how am I going to go from insight to implementation. So it can be that in a few pains in a certain journey are very important to address, but they don't stack up to a bigger problem in another journey. So what we figured out is taking some of the cues from design thinking, for instance, the first step is to find the opportunity, so rephrasing our customer problem into an opportunity for our business. Yeah, and if you can do that on journey level. So the journey, this journey has two opportunities, that journey has three opportunities, we now see, our customers start to build up a process where they bring all these opportunities together and start to prioritize them. By the way, we build some tools to you know, give you a customer and business value scoring, maybe even effort if you have like a solution direction on it. But what we see is that the discussion moves away from only prioritizing the backlog and solutions to go first to look into the opportunities that are out back to the journeys that are all, if you do it right links to your strategic objectives in your customer experience. Strategy, right. So you basically can create, like, groups of these opportunities that map on to your strategic priorities, and then you can say this is the most important one. Yeah. Then you go into the teams and say, okay, so what are we going to do about it? What are we going to build? What are we going to experiment with? What are we going to validate more of? What are we going to design? Yeah. So that is the the process that we're bringing to journey management and say, if you have your framework in place, that's recreating reality. And then you can synthesize the opportunities, bring them to one place, start aligning and assigning who does what, and then bring in the actual workflow tool. So we integrate, for instance, with JIRA where we say, Okay, this opportunity gets addressed by implementing these two epics, but it also needs some effort for marketing with a new campaign. So then you have a bunch of solutions that make that opportunity work. If everything gets implemented, the journey teams get notified, they know their journeys is about to change or has been changed or reality needs update. And that is the process that we're you know, underpinning with the tools they already have. So making the journey, the linking pin between the data in and the delivery teams, integrating into the priorities. All working as one to manage the customer experience is how we're seeing journeys play a vital role in that way of work. Yeah,

Rick Denton: 23:00

and what I like how you really laid that out. It sounds like you've got the the mindset for your next book. So let's let's get a book published that you can get out there and get on the speaking circuit with. I'm wondering, though, so those are the tactics? And that actually, it makes a ton of sense to me. There's also just kind of human resistance. Have you come into those situations with companies? Are there any stories you could share about, you know, the resistance to this idea, because it's a little bit new, maybe we're more comfortable with just being in the conference room and doing that. But that resistance to moving to action in the way you're describing?

Jochem van der Veer: 23:32

Yeah, and this is, this is the big nut to crack. And I don't think we can solve it with a tool alone, this is something that we need to do to get it right. So you know, sharing this through through this podcast, and helping people to understand what it means for their organization. This is the work we need to do a CX professionals together, because in a lot of organizations, there's legacy, there's legacy structures, or that's like the business verticals, the business units, departments, the bonus schemes of management and

Rick Denton: 24:01

we got a whole podcast, we talk about just that topic alone.

Jochem van der Veer: 24:04

Exactly. But they influence how people are receptive or resistant to change. So if you come in and say, Hey, we're going to work from journeys from now on, like, you can do that from a CX or a service design perspective, because you know, it's important, but the organization will not find it important because their priorities or targets, their bonus is not tied to that. So that is very important. But what we see is successful. So I can maybe give an example of one of the larger supermarket chains here is doing a great job but they know the customer lifecycle is the best way to look at all the different journeys together to manage the customer experience. That's that's their framing their designers, their product teams, their service design teams, they know how this works. But they have a big organization to work with, and they think in domains. So they have like the inspiration domain. They have the product selection domain and the delivery domain and they're they have the budgets and the KPI. as to what they do say, Okay, so the journeys, they come from the customer, right? What is the customer doing to order groceries online for the first time or to prepare for let's say, it's no Easter, to get the big Easter family meal on the table, I don't want to go to the supermarket, I'll order online. Let's say that is the thing. As you can see, for some that might be the first interaction they have with the digital team of that because they're going to order online for the first time. So from the customer lifecycle perspective, that journey of ordering or whole easterner like, nice package for the family is part of the early stage of the customer lifecycle, maybe in new in consideration and first purchase phase. Great. I have that journey. Well, if you go and look at the inspiration domain in that organization, you can say that journeys relevant to me as well, because people need to get some Easter inspiration, how to set up a nice table, what to put on the table for, you know, what's the latest trend? How can we you know, paint eggs? I don't know if you do that as

Rick Denton: 25:59

well, but not anymore. But I do remember those

Jochem van der Veer: 26:01

Yes. Right, right. So days? maybe you want to get inspired, right. So the domain of inspires like all these different people and teams working that domain. So there you can see the journey exists once, but it's influencing the teams into places and they have set up pretty mature organization that is already something that they can work with. But in the matrix organization that have not come that far and want to work with journeys, where that's like the Critical Mass is there. There's a bunch of teams that want to work from the journey. But the rest of the organization has maybe structured in an old fashioned way or a different way, they can really help see existing work in the context of journeys, and make those transitions a little bit more smooth, step by step, and then you get into discussion. Okay, what do we measure? And how do we show the impact of what has a journeys of related to change in, let's say, our digital environment that ultimately delivered better business results? And then again, you can dissect it into times? Like, is the customer lifecycle better? Or does the customer experience in this stage of the lifecycle now improved? Yeah. And in the domain of inspiration, whatever your KPI is, did we make it go up? Going up is the right thing? Yeah,

Rick Denton: 27:13

it is amazing how that culture shift that was the root of that question and how you can help move people along? What's the root of that the customer helping the customer understand helping or not helping the customer be at the center, helping companies see that that experience, that journey is what we're actually trying to solve for, rather than your domain, rather than your incentive, whatever that looks like. It's whatever the customer is. I'm taking a look at the clock. And we are actually kind of out of time. But there's a question that I want to ask you. And so we'll probably close out with this. But I know we talked earlier about that fully remote company, how it provided you the opportunity to work from anywhere, what you've done and described with think to sort of takes that in the journey mapping world. So it is no longer people having to be in a conference room, but rather input from around the world asynchronously. How does that help when you can get that async? And that global input? How does that create a better experience design overall?

Jochem van der Veer: 28:06

Maybe I can share a story of one of our first customers, one of the larger temp recruiting staffing firms globally. Okay. Hon stuff, I think they do a phenomenal job and setting a global best practice for customer experience. And then they work with 36 countries all over the globe, with enabling those teams to really think about their talents to people that you know, get the jobs through Ronstadt and then continue working in different jobs. And they help them find the next job. That's that's basically for the talents, there are their focus, they really want to touch the, I believe the work lives of 500 million people. So 500 million people. And as we know, in CX, it's a lot of different needs and a lot of different perspectives and outlooks on life. And what we did, and this was like, early days, in day two, when the idea for the product was born, we had a first real version of it, they used, but we were also helping them to set up, you know, some practices that was, you know, our job as consultants. So we helped them interview talents in four countries. So in Belgium, in UK, in Portugal, and in the Netherlands, and that was pre COVID. So it was nice, we traveled there, we helped them to do these interviews, to figure out what talent experience was for, let's say, working moms in Portugal versus single male builders finding, you know, basically job hopping and what the differences were. So all these journeys were met. But what the team also did, the global team was like, consolidate these into the talent experience from different needs, and we can go into the personas. Maybe that's a little bit too detailed for now. But they crossed the few personas that crossed the borders. But what they did was was very nice. They created base layer journeys, like this is the basic experience we want to have but then gave the teams the freedom to say hey, A Portuguese person with all their Portuguese mindset really need something different than maybe someone in England while the need is the same, the journey can still be slightly different. And how you want to do that is up to you. But this is the best practice that we as a company want to give people we believe you should, should have that. And by taking that into one place, and letting for instance, all the decision makers get together around the opportunities from these different journeys, using data and that, in this case, to ally on what is important, what we're going to work on, made it easy to show the impact. So one of the opportunities impacts at all journeys, some impacts, it's only one local journey. And by doing that, you can bring that local voice of your customer, it's a localized version of your need base profile, if you're not going to full journey persona terminology, right? To make it like person agnostic, but really understand and and give teams the knowledge of hey, there is a nuance we need to take into account when delivering a solution, feature wise, it's maybe similar. But the way we phrase it, the way we allow it, the cadence of what we serve to people might be different in different countries. And I think that was a beautiful case where we felt like Okay, so this is really going to make an impact on all these organizations. So let's, let's, let's, let's fund this, let's build a team around the product and start doing this.

Rick Denton: 31:20

That's I love that I love the idea of, Hey, there's this kind of fundamental base, but we recognize that there's differences around the globe, and being able to take that asynchronously and globally, and all the inputs that you can get and enable that way, hits at my heart just as someone who wants to travel and experience cultures, but also from a business perspective, I think it's right, because your customers are global, your customers have different needs your customers have different cultures, and how do you create an experience that matches their needs, their desires? Fantastic. You owe him this? This has been great. I would imagine that there are listeners who want to know how to get in touch with us to learn more, how can folks get in touch with you?

Jochem van der Veer: 32:00

So I'm pretty easy to approach on on LinkedIn, the easiest place to find me so find my name, Jochem van der Veen, just connect, and you can send me a chat message there. So this is why but if you're really serious about transforming your organization and starting to apply journey centric philosophy and work that way. Yeah, just go to our website TheyDo.io. There's a lot of guides materials that we provide some some thought pieces, but the easy way to set up an account, start playing and then send me a message that you heard our, our conversation. And I'll be happy to onboard personally and to to get you set up.

Rick Denton: 32:38

Well, I'll get all that in the show notes. You don't even have to hit pause, just scroll down and take a look at the show notes. And you can connect them with your camera and they do fantastic conversation that I really enjoyed it. Thank you for walking me through a journey centric philosophy and understanding what that is like, as someone who has only made it as far south as I guess, Playa Del Carmen, I now know that I need to get all the way down to to Tulum based off of your experience, and I need to spend a month there. It sounds delightful. But I really enjoyed the conversation. Thank you so much today and best of luck with all that is in your world and when they do.

Jochem van der Veer: 33:15

Thanks for a pleasure to be here and I'll see you in Bali I guess for the first time.

Rick Denton: 33:22

Thanks for joining us this week on CX Passport. Make sure to visit our website cxpassport.com where you can hit subscribe so you'll never miss a show. While you're at it, you can check out the rest of the EX4CX website. If you're looking to get real about customer experience, EX4CX is available to help you increase revenue by starting to listen to your customers and create great experiences for every customer every time. Thanks for listening to CX Passport and be sure to tune in for our next episode. Until next time, I'm Rick Denton, and I believe the best meals are served outside and require a passport.