Rick Denton: 0:05

You're listening to CX Passport, the show about creating great customer experiences with a dash of travel talk. Each episode we’ll talk with our guests about great CX, travel...and just like the best journeys, explore new directions we never anticipated. I'm your host Rick Denton. I believe the best meals are served outside and require a passport. Let's get going. a connection with someone who shares my aversion to survey and score, and really believes in listen and act, today's guest Gus Imhof has spent his entire career in Voice of the Customer space. Gus even wrote his master's thesis on the ROI of CX for the automotive industry. You know, I'm going to be asking him about that. Gus is a strong advocate for getting companies from languishing in the scores of rudimentary surveys to true actionable decisions, and allowing voc to provide great governance to accompanies decisions. A hearty shout out to the bank CEO of LinkedIn, Paul banks for facilitating that connection to guest building a connection with a fellow customer experienced professional I could not wait to meet. Gus comes to us today from Leeds, UK. So I get to bounce back across the pond for this conversation, which is something he's familiar with as well. Gus was born in Brazil, grew up in Switzerland, and now lives in the UK. I love these global experiences, Gus, welcome to CX passport.

Gus Imhof: 1:34

Thank you so much for having me, Rick. And yeah, thank you, for Paul, for this amazing connection. It's been a delight so far, and cannot wait to see what we get up to in this chat.

Rick Denton: 1:44

That's right, let's let the rest of the world understand this connection. Right. So let's, let's start with surveys, right? That's a big, big focus here today. And surveys are absolute. They're falling out of favor with a lot of customer experience professionals. But you've told me that it's not surveys that should fall out of favor. But bad surveys. What does a proper survey approach look like to you?

Gus Imhof: 2:06

Oh, that's the thing, right? Is surveys are everywhere nowadays. And I can't I can't recall a single company that I've worked with where advise where they didn't have some kind of survey in place. Right is because there's the thing is that that's something that you see in the wider customer experience space is because I'm a customer. I think I know what the customer would want. So surely I'm qualified to be a customer expense professional is the same thing, right is a survey is asking questions. Well, I'm a human being, I talk to other humans, I know how to ask questions. Of course, I'm qualified to write a survey. Right? That's kind of the the narrative that goes probably subconsciously, right, that goes in people's mind. But surveys is not in the science. And the reality is, the majority of surveys are received to this day, and talking about huge brands as well. Just don't deliver quality data. And there's the old adage, right is rubbish in rubbish out? Sure. Right. And if you don't have the right structure, you don't have the right questions. It just doesn't work. And I think that we have other thing of surveys are that surveys are dead surveys are dead. But yeah, surveys that don't bring you any insights are absolutely that. Right. There's no doubt about it. But a company that does without surveys, is not going to good to go for either no matter what those consulting companies that tell you about the power of data analytics, and NLP and so on. Without surveys, you're not going to go for their fundamental.

Rick Denton: 3:50

I think so one of first of all, I completely agree in that sense that surveys aren't going away. But going back to the very first thing you said, there was you said surveys are everywhere. And there's an image that comes to mind. I've seen people talk about it, and I've seen it posted but it we've all I've experienced it right. And it's that red, yellow green button in the bathroom. How was your experience today? I'm sitting there thinking, I don't know that I want to share what my experience was now. Yes, give me a button to say hey, the bathroom needs some attention so that we can alert you to you know, hey, look, there's some flooding, there's a mess. There's that kind of thing. But a real survey about my experience in the bathroom feels a little intrusive and perhaps not something that I really want to fill out. And then also I think, who is actually doing anything with the red, yellow green buttons inside of a bathroom.

Gus Imhof: 4:33

And either using that bathroom example is it baffles me that until COVID Like you actually had physical buttons to press and those bathrooms. Like, if you think about it, like hygiene 101 You go to the bathroom, how many people don't wash their hands before after let's be honest, and you're going to press the same button on them. Now at least now you have like the sensor motion sensors that actually helps to to capture it. Right? Well, we've waited for COVID to happen for that to make sense. That's ridiculous.

Rick Denton: 5:06

You're absolutely right. I wasn't thinking of the hygiene perspective when I was mentioning that, but you're absolutely right. There's another example the red, yellow, green that has always cracked me up. It's not a hygiene one. But I remember when I was coming through immigration, I think it was through the Shanghai airport, but it was one of the airports in China. And you're right there at immigration, and you've got the immigration officer there, and they're helping you out and everything was fine. I have no complaints about it. But there's a red yellow green button there, you know, what was your experience like today? Do you think anyone in their right mind is ever going to push the red button in front of an immigration officer that determines whether you are going to get into the country or not? So talk about gaming a survey, I bet you that that score was 100% on whatever score you want to think it is? Absolutely. But I know that. Okay, so going back to All joking aside, right, good surveys, not the bad surveys. And it requires that thoughtful analysis that you're describing, because it has to go beyond the score. Right? We just joked about that. 100. Right that you could get there. So how do you do that? How do you go about getting those meaty customer insights that go beyond that score?

Gus Imhof: 6:08

So there's a couple of bits, and that in itself could probably be an entire podcast episode on its own right. I think the key things are like the most fundamental, let's imagine I have a consulting client that comes to me and say, Look, us, we don't have the budget to hire you to rewrite the briefing for us. Just give us some guidelines. Right, what would I tell them? The first one is, you need to make sure that the question actually makes sense. What do I mean by that? Don't just jump on NPS because your neighbor's dog told you NPS was fantastic. Right? It's think does it actually make sense? Right, right. And the typical example, and there's lots of industries, but let's take a DVLA in the UK or DMV in the US, right? You go to the drivers agency? And they say would you recommend us? You're like, well? Do I have a choice? Yeah. Like, like, either you drive or you don't? Right. That's it? So why would you drive your decisions or on the back of that. And that's the thing is, you need to kind of be very literal about the questions you ask and think as a customer? Would I know how to answer this question? And is that the sentiment you want me to have? Like is do you really want to be the most recommended brands? If you are fantastic, if not look for something else? So that's the first point. The second point is focus on making sure every question has an owner, but they move away from Nice to know. And boards need to know. Right? So whenever I'm talking to stakeholders, and I'll say, Oh, I'd like to ask about this. Okay, fantastic. Why? Why do you care? Oh, it's interesting to know, okay, what are you going to do with it? Well, it's interesting to know, okay, let's be in it. But everyone needs to have an honor for that question. Because otherwise, no one's going to look at the question, no one's going to look at the data. And it's just wasting time for everyone involved.

Rick Denton: 8:10

With that. I know you've got more points there. But I gotta stop for a second, that scope creep of a survey scope creep is so maddening. Because you know what happens? People are sitting in a room and they looked at survey results. And like, boy, it would really be nice to know what customers thought on Tuesday afternoon. Let's ask him about the Tuesday afternoon question. You're like, what are you going to do with that? You're gonna do nothing with that. And it's just these incremental things that drive you absolutely a poop. So yes, sorry to stop you down there, Gus. But that one really hits me

Gus Imhof: 8:38

No, but it's brilliant that you did. And, and it is a beauty when we don't plan it. But it just happens magically. Because the third point I was going to make relates to that, and essentially, is the scope creep, right is I want to know about this, this and that is, right. And I have a friend that always use the McDonald's toilet as an example. Right? If you go to McDonald's, and you go in and the toilet is rubbish and disgusting, you're not going to stop and order a burger, you're just gonna leave. Simple as that. Right? So it's not something that's going to delight people, it's gonna piss them off. Now, instead of asking them about 15, different aspects that you think is important, turning it on its head. Right? So have you lead measure, whether it's CSAT efforts, whatever it is, and then the why is the meat. Right? Why did you tell us that? Why did you answer? Great, terrible, whatever, right? Because that's the thing, right? Is we kind of by setting the parameters. Those are the 15 elements that are important. You don't give the client the customer the opportunity to tell us what is most important to them, right. And ultimately, it's about what's important to the customer, which is why relying just on analytics is rubbish because you want to understand what matters to the customer? First and foremost, because if the customer doesn't care, then why should i?

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Rick Denton: 10:34

that idea of you noticed, I've always been a fan of the verbatims. Right. That's the point that I want to get out of the survey, the score is good and helps you measure trends. I'm not anti scored it so that you can see how you're doing sort of over time I get it. But it's the verbatims that really matter. And I thought to me, it's always because there's so much gold in there, I had thought of it from the perspective you're offering. And that is, yeah, but by doing focusing on that you're also not forcing the customer into answering questions about something they don't actually care about. And then the reverse, eliminating an opportunity for them to give you information about something they care about. Because you shaped your question. So specifically, that's particularly helpful, Gus.

Gus Imhof: 11:16

And that's the thing, right is when I started my career in the consulting with, with voice of customers, we had a set of questions. There was satisfaction rating rounds, five to seven elements of a given experience. Yeah. So if I go back to the McDonald's example, you will be the speed of service, the friendliness of the staff, let's say the cleanliness of the bathroom and the number of things, right, then you say, look, customer, those are the seven things that matter. Yeah, tell us what you care about. But by doing that, we lose out the opportunity to understand what they care about, really, because all those are weighted equally. And then we rely on statistical models to tell us which one has the biggest impact on the KPI rather than actually look human being. If if you tell me you're upset, tell me what subsets you if you tell me you're delighted, tell me what delighted Yeah.

Rick Denton: 12:08

You know, I'm sitting here thinking, I wonder why that is. Because there are good people out there. No one's trying to design a bad survey. And I can imagine that some of this is because imagine years decades ago, when we were trying to understand, well, maybe there weren't the tools to really help us churn through all of those verbatims. Because that's a lot of work to do. But in today's world, that's no longer an excuse, you've got so many tools to allow you to take the verbatims and pull the themes out. So I can see in the past, look, I got to ask about these five questions, because I have no other way to discern if that's really important to them. But in today's world, you're right, you could design a two to three questions survey and get just as much meat as the infinite 1530 question survey.

Gus Imhof: 12:49

And the thing and you know, to an extent, I almost think that and that that may sound a bit controversial, but it almost feel like it's a false excuse. Right? Because let's say, Okay, we don't have any AI, which, by the way, a lot of my projects in the past haven't had any aI have any feeling right, but it's very simple, right? If you have too many comments to review, then what are you going to do? Just look at how long those are? Right? The longer the the response, the richer the more involved, the more passionate they are? Yeah, because you get more value from that right is, oh, it was great, or rubbish. That's not going to tell you anything. But those are really expand their you golden nuggets to use in your reporting. But they also give you really an understanding of how challenging or how amazing something is. So I'm all for the AI. But there were ways already.

Rick Denton: 13:47

Oh, and completely agree. Yeah, certainly, I don't want to unsigned where there's a word, I'm going to make up a word here. So let's not do that. I'm going to try not to be so anti scientific because I actually do believe in the tools and all of that. But the other thing is okay, if you don't have it, you can't afford it. You're beginning company that can just read them. Just read the verbatims go through there, you'll get a feel and go through that. And maybe you'll be imprecise. But so what you will have at least got yourself started down that journey now. Exactly related to this idea of customer verbatims. You mentioned a key customer experience concept to me before memories. Why are memories so important to understanding customer experience?

Gus Imhof: 14:27

Because the reality is Rick, and that's probably my most controversial thought I put out every couple of weeks is customer experience does nothing for your business. Right? The experience your customer has with your brand does not impact your bottom line, but impacts your future performance is what they remember from those experiences. Right now. The reality is those are distinct things. What's What happens and what remember what what happens are two different things and in the Customer Experience three book, I have a chapter that talks exactly about that. And the fundamental piece that I use as an example, is the legal system. Right? Look, look at cases where the star arguments towards or against someone being accused is an eyewitness. Right? And we see the eyewitness is the most reliable is the smoking gun, right? It's the most reliable asset any lawyer can have in their arsenal, right? Now, what if I told you that both in simulated environments and laboratory environment, and in real life study shows consistently, that between 20 to 40% of eyewitnesses identify the wrong person?

Rick Denton: 15:49

Wow. It's scary, frightening and all of the above. But it doesn't surprise me as you say it like that. So exactly. Eyewitnesses is not your strongest, right? So.

Gus Imhof: 16:01

And that's the thing, right? But we say, but essentially, we rely on their memory, like the only thing that makes those eyewitnesses valuable from that legal perspective, is their memory. Yet the memory is fallible.

Rick Denton: 16:15

And I see how that I can already kind of see where you're getting there. But take me to so how how does that apply then to the the reason why memories matter so much for customer experience?

Gus Imhof: 16:24

Because that's the thing is, I'm never going to be able to make decisions based on what happens only on what I remember from those experiences, right? And that's why you have so many cases of in the contact center, for example, where a client seems incredibly unreasonable, and obviously, they're lying, and they're just trying to get advantage. Okay, maybe they're not, maybe their recollection of the events is different than what actually happens. Maybe it's factually incorrect, but it's their perception is their vision of it. It's what they will use for their future decision making. Now, we could sit back and say, Oh, look, we're victim of that, and we can't do anything. But the reality is, science has moved a lot along the way. And there we know what makes something more or less memorable, right. So if we design for memorability, then we can encourage our customers to remember us in a positive light at the right time. So they remember us for the right reasons at the right time. i When whenever they're going to buy next. And this thing is making the dissociation between memory and experience is something that's so fundamental. Because if you only focus on what they remember, you prioritizing what actually matters to them.

Rick Denton: 17:47

i That's an interesting concept design for memorability oh boy. I am a podcaster. Right, apparently, but apparently I can't talk today. So design for memory ability, I'll have to work on that. But the concept whether I can pronounce it or not, doesn't matter. But the concept really fits. That's interesting. The idea that it's not the actual experience, but it's what they remember and, and brands that have become such a delight, right, especially in the real experience, but when you're talking about either hospitality, or entertainment have gotten that, right, because that's just the nature of their business. But the idea that you're expanding it down to, okay, even if you're in a retail store, or you're you're in a contact center, what does that design look like when it's about the memory, not about the experience? Now, we're talking about measurements, and I don't want to throw the measurements out, right? We talked about that this idea. But I know that you've been a part of companies that have found themselves on all over in their journey of customer experience and voice of the customer measurement when it comes to the maturity on that journey. What are some examples where you've been a part of where the traditional metrics just don't quite fit.

Gus Imhof: 18:54

So there's lots of industries right where it just don't fit. And I think the best example, was NPS with the with the DMV absolute, it just doesn't work. The example I always use on why transactional NPS doesn't make sense is imagine you're a diehard Apple fan, like you get every product they release every single year you upgrade and so on. Then you go to the contact center, because I want time, you have a problem with one of your devices. And you call the contact center. And the person treats you like garbage, worst call you had in your life comes a survey, how likely are you to recommend Apple based on this interaction, right? Like humans are unable to to make that distinction, right? We cannot compartmentalize and say look, let's forget everything I have have for last 15 years being known by everyone in my life as the Apple fan. Yeah, and review just a one interaction doesn't work. There's too much halo effect. We need to be independent enough and say look, you know what, I don't Need satisfaction don't need NPS don't need effort, because sometimes it doesn't work. So you need to understand what would make sense in that scenario. So we need to kind of move away from those three core metrics, they may be suitable. But let's not be shy about saying you know what, those are not the right metrics.

Rick Denton: 20:22

Let's take a little break here, let's let's walk away from the world of metrics and see sets. Sometimes it can be a little exhausting. And even with travel, we can get a little worn out. So why don't you join me here in the first class lounge, take a break here. We'll move quickly here and hopefully have a little bit of fun what is a dream travel location from your past?

Gus Imhof: 20:40

From my past, I'd say the family ranch in Brazil.

Rick Denton: 20:44

I want to know more about that, how I can go where's the family ranch in Brazil.

Gus Imhof: 20:49

So it sounds incredibly posh when you say like that, right? Sounds really fancy but essentially, because Brazil is very much a continental country, there's a lot of cheap real estate about one or two hours from from them from the big urban areas and most, most middle class let's say middle class families have their own ranch. And to me is, I remember is has the opportunity to disconnect from the rest of the world. You know, it's so recluse you don't even have cell service. Nice. I just in the middle of nowhere, huge bits of greenery, the dogs and so on and just enjoy time with the family. And that's kind of the perfect place to just disconnect and relax and recharge batteries.

Rick Denton: 21:30

Okay, after the episode when I stopped recording, I may have to ask you a little bit more about this when we're off the record here. But you may have just created my dream travel location for the future. But what's a dream travel location that you've not been to yet?

Gus Imhof: 21:42

Japan?

Rick Denton: 21:44

Oh, yeah. Japan's come up a lot for me recently in the in the episodes, tell me why that's a trigger for you. Why? Why did Japan?

Gus Imhof: 21:51

I don't know. It's I grew up loving a lot of the inputs of the Japanese culture, right? Because they have other gaming, they have other manga, culture and so on. And it is if they opened the borders in time. It is meant to be my trip in November this year. So I'm hoping they'll open up time, and I'll be able to tick that one out of the list. Nice.

Rick Denton: 22:15

Well, travel and food go hand in hand. What is a favorite thing to eat?

Gus Imhof: 22:20

Swiss cheese fondue.

Rick Denton: 22:22

Oh, I like that. Yeah, that does sound...The problem is it's kind of mid morning. Here. I'm getting a little hungry. You need my snack? Swiss cheese fondue may not be the best snack. But that does sound good. What is what on the other side of it? What's the thing your parents forced you to eat? But you hate it as a kid?

Gus Imhof: 22:38

Any veggie whatsoever? Any? All of them? Oh, yeah, it's to this day, like there's very few vegetables actually can stand to eat or not. I'm not blaming it on them. I'm just saying that's a fact. Right? To this day. I have very few veggies. That's funny.

Rick Denton: 22:54

What is one travel item not including your phone? You will not leave home without

Gus Imhof: 23:01

nothing, including the phone. That's right. Yeah. And obviously saying a tablet or computer is an absolute cheating. Okay. Yeah, it's absolute cheating. I know. I know. I probably say a Kindle then.

Rick Denton: 23:17

All right. Well, as we exit the the first class lounge and all of that travel, I know we're the birthplace of Brazil, growing up yours in Switzerland and now UK based you've got quite a global perspective. How has that influenced the way you approach your global clients?

Gus Imhof: 23:35

I think it comes down to that element of diversity. Right? The diversity inclusion is a huge, huge topic in right in the business world nowadays, and rightly so. Rightly so. But the reality is, is not about ethnicity, or origin or whatever. But is the diversity of thoughts. And it just happens that that background does it. So what brings to the table is, I think very laterally about a lot of topics. Because my experience is so different from everyone else's, right? I mean, and I post about it recently on LinkedIn, I'm a minority in so many ways, right? Because when I go to Brazil, I'm the Swiss guy. When I go to Switzerland, I'm the Brazilian guy in the UK, I'm a foreigner anyway, right? And even within people that live here, I live in the north of England, not the South. Okay, so I have a minority point of view on many things. And that means that I'm very left field in many things that I think which were, that's where it comes at concept from the memories. There aren't many people that speak about that, because it's just people tend tend to focus on this and gravitate towards the same thing. So right, you look at memories, you look at my challenge on the core metrics, and I think is just I look at things in a way that's very pragmatic and very commercially LED. Because of the life I've lived of going through so many different cultures, and I'm just saying mishmash of all of all of those.

Rick Denton: 25:03

That diversity of thought diversity of experience, it is so valuable in business EQ, I even had a gosh, I can't even think to how long ago his episode came out June of 2021. But Todd Sears episode was called the return on equality. And the idea was business return through equality, meaning embracing all of these different thoughts, embracing the different diversity of experiences and all of that. And I think there's a real business application that the businesses that have put real action to it, as opposed to lip service, you know, okay, great. I've got you know, some some statements or something like that, but actual real action towards that it has generated better business return better understanding of their customer, because guess what their customers are diverse, their customers have multiple experiences. And the best way to understand that diversity is to have that inside your own company's understanding. And so I can see how your global perspective has certainly brought that to bear with your clients today.

Gus Imhof: 26:03

And that's the thing, right, and I've done some research about that recently. And there's no shortage of arguments on why you want applied diversity and inclusion, right. Not sure, as you said, not just lip service application. And the first one that comes to mind as we're talking about that previous episode is teams that are generally diverse and inclusive, right? You need to include those people because diversity just to tick the box doesn't work. But teams that are generally diverse, make decisions twice as fast, make better decisions with surprise, surprise, a lot fewer meetings.

Rick Denton: 26:38

Nice. Ooh, I like that.

Gus Imhof: 26:40

I mean, fewer meetings, faster decisions and better decisions, or overall. I mean, what's not like that? In a world where there's far too many meetings, cut cut? Half of the meeting is on your agenda, right? Look at all the time you got back,

Rick Denton: 26:54

right? Absolutely. No, I love that. Hey, guys, speaking of time, I just took a quick look at the clock. And we are almost out of time. But I do not want to let our conversation finish without talking about that master's thesis. And I know it's been a while ago, but you wrote a master's thesis about the ROI return on investment of customer experience for the automotive industry. Tell I know, it's been a while but tell me a little bit about that thesis. Let's close out on that.

Gus Imhof: 27:21

Sounds good? Yeah, a while this was what 20 2015? So yeah, I wrote 15. And in the goal was really to look at several metrics to help us understand the ROI of CX in the automotive industry. And if anyone is interested in reading it, it was published in 2019. In the International Journal market research, and the name was the dawn of CX metrics.

Rick Denton: 27:47

I'll get a show notes so that people absolutely love them if they'd like to.

Gus Imhof: 27:51

And essentially, what we did is we plotted customer satisfaction. And when it says, satisfaction, one of the more complex, we're not just how satisfied are you? NPS and the wallet allocation role by Timothy Cunningham, as well as the excu. So the experience quality from Phil Clausen Stan Maclin, and they use all of those and compare them to see okay, so which one actually better predicts repurchasing intention for automotive? Okay. And it was fascinating to see that actually, none of them was actually powerful. Hmm. Right is Some even had the negative relation, the better you experience, the lower your repurchase intention of the same brands, am I which is interesting read. But if you think about it, if you absolutely love a car to bits, if you're if you're into cars, and you absolutely love that car to bits, the last thing you want to do is replace it. But you're going to hold on to it right to keep up. Yeah. So it was interesting. It's, it was really interesting to help us understand a bit more that industry in itself, but to actually throw the established metrics that we have, aren't that great. And yes, NPS is one question is fantastic. But one question isn't enough, is very is too narrow, right? Because we need to remember, it's a proxy. Like if anyone tells you I know how to measure customer experience, call them out because it's wrong. No one can measure experience. And we're just using proxies that may or may not make sense nor scenarios.

Rick Denton: 29:32

Boy that now I have an even greater insight because I did not know I you and I had not talked about this other than the label of ROI of CX for the automotive industry, where it went. It really helps me understand how that shaped so much of your thinking when it comes to what you shared here in the episode. The idea of the metrics are just that just a proxy. Memories are where the focus needs to be and understanding how memories are different. You've got some very interesting thoughts around customer experience and it actually goes to that question I asked earlier. But I love having that diversity of thought, because you've actually kind of changed some of my thinking and my synapses are breaking a little bit as I process what we've talked about today. So Gus, I'd really appreciate it. Thank you for that. Now, if people wanted to get in touch with you and learn more about what you your approach and maybe even benefit from your help someday, how do they get in touch with you? What's the best way?

Gus Imhof: 30:23

So best way is my LinkedIn, Gustavo Imhoff, okay. And alternatively, you can also go on my website, so cxahead.com. And that's where you find a lot of the articles I've created in the past reports, publications, webinars, podcasts, and so on. That's the best place to find out more about what I've done in the past. But anyone's more than welcome to reach out through LinkedIn.

Rick Denton: 30:48

Awesome,

Gus Imhof: 30:48

and usually the best blog platform.

Rick Denton: 30:50

It is funny how we all find each other there as you and I did. So every listeners don't even you don't just scroll down, keep listening, scroll down all that informations there, click the links and you'll be able to get in touch with guests. Guests. Thanks so much for today. Again, you did kind of break some ice synapses in a good way. So I've got new ways of thinking, really insightful perspective. I hope that maybe you find a vegetable. That's one of your favorites sometime in the future. But you know, that's okay. There's plenty of other great food out there as well. So, thanks again, Gus. It was a wonderful conversation. I really enjoyed it.

Gus Imhof: 31:21

Thank you for having me, Rick.

Rick Denton: 31:26

Thanks for joining us this week on CX Passport. Make sure to visit our website cxpassport.com where you can hit subscribe so you'll never miss a show. While you're at it, you can check out the rest of the EX4CX website. If you're looking to get real about customer experience, EX4CX is available to help you increase revenue by starting to listen to your customers and create great experiences for every customer every time. Thanks for listening to CX Passport and be sure to tune in for our next episode. Until next time, I'm Rick Denton, and I believe the best meals are served outside and require a passport.