👉Love customer experience and love travel? You’ve found the right podcast, a show about creating great customer experience, with a dash of travel talk. 🎤Each episode, we’ll talk with our guests about customer experience, travel, and just like the best journeys, explore new directions we never anticipated. Listen here or watch on YouTube youtube.com/@cxpassport 🗺️CX Passport is a podcast that purposely seeks out global Customer Experience voices to hear what's working well in CX, what are their challenges and to hear their Customer Experience stories. In addition, there's always a dash (or more!) of travel talk in each episode.🧳Hosted by Rick Denton, CX Passport will bring Customer Experience and industry leaders to get their best customer experience insights, stories and hear their tales from the road...whether it’s the one less traveled or the one on everyone’s summer trip list.
I'm Rick Denton and I believe the best meals are served outside and require a passport
Music: Funk In The Trunk by Shane Ivers
CX Passport is a podcast for customer experience professionals that focuses on the stories, strategies, and solutions needed to create and deliver meaningful customer experiences. It features guests from the world of CX, including executives, consultants, and authors, who discuss their own experiences, tips, and insights. The podcast is designed to help CX professionals learn from each other, stay on top of the latest trends, and develop their own strategies for success.
📖 Our book is here! Get your copy of The Loud Quiet – Love, Laughter and Life in the Empty Nest, here: https://amzn.to/4sC0EV7
Summer brings out the vacay in this podcast host so I'm bringing out one of the EARLY episodes out of the vault. Enjoy! Episode 6 of CX Passport brings us Anne Witherspoon whose super power is "Outside In Thinking". While we discuss our shared appreciation of the wisdom of the "philosopher" Matthew McConaughey, Anne also brings us her wisdom around how influential employee experience is to creating great customer experience. How CAN we avoid "Sunday Sickness"? We also talk about companies that fail to consider the CUSTOMER'S experience when designing customer experience. Interesting twist there for sure. Other topics to explore are "psychological safety" at work and getting teenagers out of bed for a hot air balloon ride. Not sure how those exist in the same episode? Take a listen to Episode 6 with Anne Witherspoon.
Rick Denton:
You're listening to CX Passport, the show about creating great customer experiences with a dash of travel talk. Each episode will talk with our guests about great cx, travel...And just like the best journeys explore new directions we never anticipated. I'm your host, Rick Denton. I believe the best meals are served outside and require a passport. Let's get going Get ready. This is a good one. On today's episode, we have Anne Witherspoon. When you start to fill up the pages in your CX Passport, sometimes it's great to return home. And I'm excited to talk with a fellow resident of North Texas. Declaring outside in thinking is her superpower, you know, there's something special afoot. While many may claim it and genuinely exhibits an outside in perspective, what I really admire is how true that is for her and looking both at the customer and the employee, and has a wealth of experience in the banking industry, having been laser focused on creating great experiences for her customers. Oh, and a little tease here, be on the lookout for a new book from her later this year. Anne welcome to cx passport.
Anne Witherspoon:
Thank you. I'm so excited to be here. And congratulations on your new venture. Very exciting.
Rick Denton:
It has been fun, but it's only been fun through great guests like you. And I'm looking forward to our conversation here. I'm actually intrigued by something I've heard you say recently, when you talk about customer experience, have you forgotten the customer in that conversation? To me that's like Taco Bell running out of taco shells, which is a true story. How have you seen the customer left out of a cx conversation?
Anne Witherspoon:
Yes, well, that quote actually came from the book perk cx. I was listening in on a webinar with Adrian swin, SCO a couple of weeks ago. And you know, it just reminded me of his book, and I got it out. And I dusted off some of my notes. And that was something he said. And, you know, it's really the difference between the customer's experience and customer experience, because that has become a thing now. Right? Right. Everybody's talking about customer experience, customer experience. But what does that mean? And, you know, he says in the book, and I think this is very true, that the customer, and their experience gets left out of that conversation more often than not, these days. And so we have to be very careful. And, you know, aware that we talk about customer experience all the time, but we're not really focused on the customer. And yes, I've seen that happen many, many times, anytime. You know, especially in banking, it's a very regulated industry. And so rules and laws and regulations come out. But oftentimes, there's no thought of, well, how could we do this as we need to and follow the law, but make it the best experience possible? And I do think that there's a way to go about that. That anytime a company, whether it's a bank, or another organization, implements a form or a policy, and there's absolutely no conversation involved on how is this going to impact the customer, then yes, the customer has been left out of the conversation.
Rick Denton:
Boy, that's so true. And we've heard the stories of companies, right, it's it's become almost not trite to say, but just sort of you hear it so often that Amazon sets the empty chair up, or there's companies that put a start meetings with customer story. And all of those are very good things. How have you seen so when you've kind of experienced that where the customer is left out of the customer experience conversation? How have you repaired that? How have you kind of injected the customer back into those conversations?
Anne Witherspoon:
Yeah, in my experience, it's just about continuing to have that those conversations, and remind people that we're not here to figure out a process. We're here to improve the client experience, okay. And so many times you find yourself in re engineering meetings, or design meetings, and not one word is spoken about the customer
Rick Denton:
it is crazy, right?
Anne Witherspoon:
It is, but I think it happens in almost every organization every day. And so Unless Unless you have someone who is always an advocate for the client and the employees in these conversations, they may likely get completely missed.
Rick Denton:
That's it and I love that point of the advocate. Right. So we've seen that in company The needs that are truly customer obsessed or focused on the customer, there's some, at least some one or likely some ones, who are the ones that are always beating the drum for the customer. And eventually, that evolves into the DNA of the overall company. But before that happens, it takes that someone to really do that outside and thinking which goes back to what you said was your superpower. And I loved reading that right. So outside in outside and thinking is my superpower why is that outside and thinking so important?
Anne Witherspoon:
Well, you know, that term came about from yet another book, yes, I happened to read a little bit. Um, and that's, you know, the, the book outside in by Harley Manning and Kerry bodeen, probably eight or nine years ago now. And I just, I think it's one of the most important books about client experience, and really understanding from beginning to end, those perceptions that a client has with interactions of your organization, have to be intentionally thought out, and keeping the customer at the center of that conversation, and just taking intentional efforts along the way. And, and not just the clients, employees as well, you know, you and I both share a passion for the employee experience. And that is talked about in the book. And it really just spoke to me. And one of the things that really I can relate to is the customer experience is the most powerful and misunderstood element of corporate strategy today. And you know, when I read that, and fast forward eight years later, from reading that, it's true, the constant effort it takes for an advocate, and cx professionals to just get agreement on the definition of client experience is amazing.
Rick Denton:
Isn't that funny, and I love that book, too. It was foundational in how I got involved in the CX discipline, even having been focused on customer experience all my life, but never really even having a term for it. And I loved that outside and book. And what's interesting is how many of the principles that were stated in that book are still true today. You mentioned it in the customer no longer being a part of customer experience discussions, or making sure that we're focused on outside and I absolutely love it. Now, a little little change here. But you know, you and I both experienced that legendary 2021 winter storm here in Texas, and thankfully, both of our families had a chance to head out of town after the winter storm for our region spring break. Where did you go?
Anne Witherspoon:
We went to Arizona.
Rick Denton:
Okay, tell me a little bit about that trip. It's a beautiful place. I love Arizona.
Anne Witherspoon:
Yes, um, my husband and I used to work out there a lot, but several years ago, and so it's always had a special place in our hearts. And somewhere we wanted to make sure we took our kids. So we did just about everything. Went to the Grand Canyon, Painted Desert, Petrified Forest, meteor crater all over, did a hot air balloon ride, you know, it was great.
Rick Denton:
Tell me about the hot air balloon ride. That's an interesting experience. For sure. It's one that many have done, but many have not.
Anne Witherspoon:
Well, it's beautiful. It's very relaxing. You know, the challenge for me was to get two teenagers out of bed at 445 in the morning. So we could be there for the sunrise. But um, it was great, very just. So it gives you a different perspective, right to be floating up above the the area and just see it from a different perspective. So it's beautiful
Rick Denton:
that see it from a different perspective. So this is something I've experienced when I've traveled and of course, I'm always thinking through a customer experience lens or an employee experience lens, it's hard to turn that off. But when you've let's think about that Arizona trip for a little bit Did you come across anything that you saw was really okay, that that changes my mind about customer experience or employee experience? Did you did you come across anyone that changed how you thought about it?
Anne Witherspoon:
Um, well, it's always top of my mind. I don't know if it changed what I thought about it. But you know, when your kids will say, we know all the time, Mom, that was a good client experience, right? That was a bad client experience, you know that you're a little maybe over focused on that in your household. Um, but you know, one thing I did avoid was a terrible client experience simply because I had witnessed it indirectly just a couple of months ago and that's with rental cars. We had a very Have a late arrival into an airport when we started our spring break adventure. And I was reminded that two months earlier, I had witnessed some rental car. Clients showing up and the rental car company not being available for them to be able to get their keys. Now one company was open, the other was closed. And I thought, you know, I'm going to go ahead and call ahead and make sure that they're going to be open when we get there. And you know, get just everything squared away. And so I did, and they're like, Oh, no, we closed I think two hours before flight was going to arrive. And I thought, how many other people didn't call ahead and arrived and did not have a car. And so it's just, it's an obvious pain point that I think rental companies need to get aligned with the airport. And be aware of flight times and be prepared to stay open until your clients arrive. It seems very, very easy, but I think it happens quite often.
Rick Denton:
Oh, I feel like we're going back to the first question right. This is an example of the customer is not a part of the design customer experience.
Anne Witherspoon:
Exactly.
Unknown:
Well, anne keeping the traveling theme going, why don't you join me here in the first class lounge we will move quickly here and hopefully have some fun. What's a dream travel location from your past?
Anne Witherspoon:
Deer Valley, Utah sounds pretty beautiful snow. Best skiing I've ever done. Amazing.
Rick Denton:
I love being on the hill. In fact, I joke The only reason that snow exists is to ski on there's no other purpose. 100% What is a dream travel location you've not been to yet.
Anne Witherspoon:
Iceland.
Unknown:
So interesting. I've heard a lot about Iceland. Tell me why that's a one on your list.
Anne Witherspoon:
beautiful location, the Land of Fire and Ice. I'm just intrigued by by Iceland. And I just want to see it
Rick Denton:
very well. And as we're recording this, there's the volcano that is actively providing stunning views in Iceland. So I think there's a lot of reasons to go for sure. What is a favorite thing to eat?
Anne Witherspoon:
Mexican food.
Rick Denton:
Okay. had that last big fan. On the other side of that what is the thing your parents forced you to eat but you hate it as a kid?
Anne Witherspoon:
brussel sprouts.
Rick Denton:
All right. You and I both share a love for employee experience. And a distaste for brussel sprouts. Yeah, I suffered through those two and they're having a bit of a renaissance now aren't they? So but it's still not going to show up on my plate.
Anne Witherspoon:
You know, I came to enjoy them. Really in my later years. Strange things. I think your tastes change as you get older. I used to not like blue cheese now. I love it. I mean, who knows?
Rick Denton:
Well, I am not joining you on the brussel sprouts Renaissance. What is one travel item you will not leave home without
Anne Witherspoon:
My Kindle or a book or two
Rick Denton:
Anne, I noticed that both of us just rapidly consumed the recent Matthew McConaughey book greenlights. It was fascinating read. One point that I know resonated with you was if I couldn't do what I wanted, I wasn't going to do what I didn't. How have you seen that applied employee experience both yours and that of your teams?
Anne Witherspoon:
Yes, well, I think as an employee, and really just as a human being, we owe it to ourselves to really explore and analyze our own values and our strengths. And when you can do that, when you know what they are, you can state them you can articulate them, then you know better what you want to do, and what you're good at and what you know, gives you reason to jump out of bed in the morning. And so I think you find things in our lives that either lift us up and bring us joy and a lot of fulfillment, or they don't and they really just almost suck the life out of us. And so when you know those things, those values and those strengths, and something is presented to you that you know, does not align and is not a good fit, and does not bring you joy. Then I think for me that quote from the book, that's when it resonates and if you can't do what you wanted, and I'm going to put in parentheses what you know, you're going At what you know you love, then you walk away, and it makes it easier.
Rick Denton:
And which is an empowering feel, it certainly feels good to choose that. How have you helped the teams that you've either led or the teams that you've been around? Or even teams? You've been a part of? How have you helped spread that same sense of empowerment to allow people to focus on the elements that they want, but be able to say no to the things that they don't?
Anne Witherspoon:
Yeah, I think it's, what I've tried to do is talk about Sunday sickness. And that's when, you know, Sunday afternoon or Sunday evening, you start getting a little sick to your stomach at the thought of going back to work on Monday. And I've encouraged my teams over the years to, to be aware of that feeling, and to not let it continue very long. I mean, when you're doing a job that you love, you do not get Sunday sickness, you don't because you don't dread Monday, in fact, I know sometimes you even look forward to it, because there are things that you want to accomplish, that are meaningful, and that you love to work on. So you don't dread it. But if you find yourself week, after week, after week, getting sick on Sunday, at the thought of Monday, it's probably time to take a good look at at why. And maybe it may be time to find something else to do.
Rick Denton:
Boy, that makes a lot of sense. And I know I'm sure all of us have experienced that Sunday sickness. I have not thought of it in those terms. But you're absolutely right. And it isn't. I mean, we all have moments, they're their highs and lows in any given any given job and you give an experience. But it's a matter of if that's every Sunday for you than it is time to and I love how you're exposing that to your teams and saying, look, this is really something you need to self evaluate and help them self choose out of that. Now that takes a bit of safety. And I've seen a lot about making it safe for employees to contribute or express feedback or share their thoughts. And more specifically, this term of creating an environment of psychological safety. Why is that so important?
Anne Witherspoon:
Yes. Well, you know, that term, I think came about with a project Aristotle, research that Google did several years back in 2012, I think. And Google was really interested in what makes teams effective. And why are some teams successful, and some are not. And they did a lot of research. And, you know, one, one of the things they found was the number one reason teams are effective is because of psychological safety. And that is very important. And it's all about, are you able to be authentic in your team? Can you bring your whole self to work? Does your team trust you? And do you trust them, and, and you know, they're not going to ridicule you, you know, they're going to lift you up, they're not going to tear you down, you can say things that you want to you can be very open, you can speak up in meetings, and they are going to maybe not agree, it's not all about everybody agrees, but it's about they're going to support you and listen. And it's about trust and respect. And that is the number one reason teams are successful and effective.
Rick Denton:
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense that when you're comfortable, you're willing to be more creative, you're willing to take a risk. And you're and that's where some of the greatest new ideas come from. If If, if we all focus solely on our safety, then we would create nothing new, it would always be focused on making sure that we were protected. And so if that's so vital, and that's how teams truly succeed. How have you seen that psychological safety created? How have you created it? How have you seen it created?
Anne Witherspoon:
Well, I have tried to spend a lot of time building trust within teams that I have led because I think it it really does start with the leader. And if I think about it, probably over the course of my career, I've only worked in a couple of teams that truly had psychological safety, top of mind and inaction. And it was very important to me that any team that I lead that I tried to create that and it takes time to build trust. You know, it's not natural, people don't naturally trust one another. And people are very different. They have different personalities and different experiences. And so you've got to be intentional and putting together an environment encourages people to get to know one another, to build trust to, you know, be themselves. And I've spent a lot of time in teams that I've led, trying to do just that.
Rick Denton:
Yeah. And I think there's an intentionality that is what's coming out in what you're saying that it's not something that happens automatically, I think, go all the way back to the beginnings of our evolution. And that is okay, I see something else. I'm afraid of that something else. I don't trust that something else. And so as we've come out of our caveman days, and into societies and into cultures and everything else, we realize that to achieve the greatest success requires that trust, but it's not something that is natural. And there it requires specific, intentional steps, I found to that it helps to be very transparent as a leader as well. And being open with a team and saying, you know, what, I just screwed up last week, let me tell you about that. And let me tell you how I learned from it and and be willing to share your own leadership failures, which is scary at times when I've been a new leader. That's scary. It's only over time and being more seasoned that I've come to realize that actually is the more effective path is showing that transparency. Totally agree. And I've talked about how 2020 is the year that not everything changed with the reality of some fundamentals of customer experience, they've stayed the same pre, during and soon, post pandemic, you've said something similar about your five universal truths of customer experience, I would love to hear more about those five universal truths.
Anne Witherspoon:
I think there are five things that are just the truth about cx. And that is number one. CX is a science and an art, you know, and that's really, what's interesting to me, because it combines cold, hard facts with squishy feelings. Number two, people should not confuse client experience with marketing. It's not the same, it is not the same at all. And it's really one reason I think organizations don't find the success in client experience like they would like because they lump it with marketing. Three, walk the talk, you have got to take action, you can't just sit around and talk about client experience, it is about being intentional and taking action. client experience starts at the top, I don't think that there is an organization that can be successful in client experience unless their CEO understands it. Unless the client experience team reports to the CEO. And they're very much aligned. And then finally, employee experience is the most important part. You cannot deliver a good client experience if you have grumpy employees, and if they don't trust you. And if they are not have the right mindset and talent and temperament to provide great client experience.
Rick Denton:
How true I love those five universal truths. One of the things about truth is that it's true in this conversation, and it shows up in other conversations and others. And one of the things that you said there actually relates to Episode One of cx passport. And that is when Santa was talking about the disconnect between marketing and customer experience, and how some think of that world is the same, some see it as disconnected and so completely agree there. And then I definitely love the call to action, right? It doesn't matter if we're doing this in an ivory tower. It doesn't matter if we're designing great customer experiences if we're not actually acting on it. I think a lot of that action too ties into how do we relate to our frontline? How do we use the frontline in that, in that action, that they aren't somebody that just feels ambushed by the latest greatest cx initiative from headquarters, but rather, here's here is their deep involvement. I love all five of them. Instead of me repeating all five of them. I just find great delight in them. And and we'll just continue to hit rewind and listen to them again. Because it is true. Those are fundamental. Those are things that are almost the table stakes. And yet how many companies don't apply those five. So it is it's shocking and a bit disappointing. Maybe that rental car company needs to learn about your your five universal truths.
Unknown:
Well, Anne it has been an absolute delight talking with you. I always enjoy getting into customer experience and employee engagement conversations with you. I'm thankful that you shared a little bit of your Arizona trip with us and it is interesting how you and I both found wisdom from the philosopher Matthew McConaughey. Not sure what to label him these days. But it is it is always a time for me to learn when I talk with you and I really We enjoyed it. So and thank you so much for being a guest on cx passport today. And I wish you the best in your customer experience, your employee experience and your future travels.
Anne Witherspoon:
Thank you so much. Really appreciate it. Great to talk to you. Thank you.
Rick Denton:
Thanks for joining us this week on CX Passport. Make sure to visit our website cxpassport.com where you can hit subscribe so you'll never miss a show. While you're at it, you can check out the rest of the EX4CX website. If you're looking to get real about customer experience, EX4CX is available to help you increase revenue by starting to listen to your customers and create great experiences for every customer every time. Thanks for listening to cx passport and be sure to tune in for our next episode. Until next time, I'm Rick Denton and I believe the best meals are served outside and require a passport.
