Rick Denton: 0:05

You're listening to CX Passport, the show about creating great customer experiences with a dash of travel talk. Each episode we’ll talk with our guests about great CX, travel...and just like the best journeys, explore new directions we never anticipated. I'm your host Rick Denton. I believe the best meals are served outside and require a passport. Let's get going. With a profile title of experience evangelist, former Walt Disney Imagineer, grateful cancer patient. neurodiversity advocate. I couldn't wait to get today's guest Shawn Nason on CX passport. Those labels don't even cover the talented studio and touring musical and ministry career both for getting into the world of experience. I've learned to my guests of CX passport that there isn't just one way into customer experience, Shawn definitely proves that to be the case. Today we find Shawn at MOFI, a boutique design firm he created to reimagine experience ecosystems. Shawn started that firm seven years ago, you'll love the phrase a mentor, perhaps a better title of muse told him that started Sean down the entrepreneurial experience path. If I stopped there with design Disney music, you'd have the makings for a fascinating guest. But Shawn has offered the chance for me. And now you the listener to explore areas of customer experience we don't normally choose to discuss, like real life patient experience as in Sean's words, grateful cancer patient? Or what does it mean to create customer experiences for a neuro diverse community? We're going to touch some really important areas today, Shawn, welcome to CX Passport.

Shawn Nason: 1:49

Well, thank you for having me. It's an honor to be here, Rick, and to be on the CX Passport.

Rick Denton: 1:54

Thanks, Shawn. This is going to be fun. And I think it's going to be deep and rich and meaningful. I'm looking forward to this let's but let's start just a little high level, because you talk about reimagining experience ecosystems. I love the way that sounds. But tell me more what you mean by that?

Shawn Nason: 2:09

Well, let me let me start with the the professional definition. Right? So we define an experience ecosystem is the web of people touch points and systems, that combined to define the experiences of everyone who interacts with your organization. And then to leverage that experience ecosystem as a competitive advantage. One that increases engagement, loyalty, and most importantly, revenue year after year, requires engaging and humanizing the entire ecosystem. And so I use this as an example because it's really easy. And you mentioned in my introduction, which is a brilliant introduction, I may have to steal that for thank you for that so much, Rick. But Disney, right, so I was a Walt Disney Imagineer. And I spent almost seven years at the Disney Corporation, Walt Disney Corporation. Disney thinks about guests experience in an ecosystem approach. So what many people don't know about me is that I spent that time at Disney in the finance department. So I have a bachelor's degree and a master's degree in finance, am I and typically in the world of experience? Finance is probably one of the people that you rub the most with. Okay? But I learned at Disney, that it takes the whole ecosystem. And I learned that what I did backstage as a cast member, because I didn't interact with our guests. I didn't work in the park. But I was backstage. I knew that every decision I was making as a finance person impacted the four year old princess or their four year old pirate. Oh, man and that family? Yeah, because let's be real, right? It's not cheap to go to Disney. It most certainly is not. And I learned that even more when I left the company. People say people say to me, Well, do you still get perks? Nope, I pay full price. So and we go a lot to Disney as a family. But there are families that save years to go have that one experience to take their kids, right. And so every decision I made as I sat at my desk, as I said in meetings, I had to keep them in mind. But what was more important is the people that were around the table making that decision. So think of it as a core team that had marketing and brand and HR and you know, engineering and the creative side and finance. You know, all of those people sit around the table making decisions on projects at Disney, and particularly at Walt Disney Imagineering. And for those that don't know, Imagineering are the people that create everything from blue sky to implementation. So you walk into a resort, you ride a ride, you've been on a cruise ship, anything Disney is starts at Walt Disney Imagineering with the Imagineers. So all of those decisions were made in an ecosystem approach, that Disney doesn't talk about it that way.

Rick Denton: 5:39

Right? No, it's I hadn't heard that term coming out of Disney World

Shawn Nason: 5:42

never come out. And it really came out of a walk in 2021, that my partner Michael and I, in the business we were, we were walking, we had been traveling for business. And we were just kind of scratching our head around some things. And he said, What about this concept of ecosystem. And that's when I said, we like an experience ecosystem. And we defined it. And so if you go on our website, at Molefi, it's customer experience, digital experience, supply chain integration, Leadership, Culture, marketplace awareness, vendor relations, brand loyalty, and messaging and employee experience. Now, every organization has a different ecosystem. So when we go in and work with organizations, we help them create what is in that ecosystem. For every touchpoint that touches a member, a guest, a customer, whatever you want to call that. And we just plainly call it humans.

Your CX Passport Captain: 6:42

This is your captain speaking. I want to thank you for listening to CX Passport today. We’ve now reached our cruising altitude so I’ll turn that seatbelt sign off. <ding> While you’re getting comfortable, hit that Follow or Subscribe button in your favorite podcast app so you never miss an episode. I’d love it if you’d tell a friend While you’re getting comfortable, hit that Follow or Subscribe button in your favorite podcast app so you never miss an episode. I’d love it if you’d tell a friend about CX Passport and leave a review so that others can discover the show as well. Now, sit back and enjoy the rest of the episode.

Rick Denton: 7:08

You know, you're right that, as you describe that, because I've heard the front of house back of house front stage backstage, all Disney terms like that. But I hadn't thought of it in that experience ecosystem perspective, but it does it makes sense. Just like we studied in our own, you know, what seventh grade ecology classes are that sort of thing? What is an ecosystem? And how does each piece inside of that ecosystem affect the other piece? How does the butterfly effect the lion? How does that all come together? And we talk a lot in the customer experience world about how you get those roles that aren't customer facing to care about the customer and recognize how their decisions impact the customer. And you're just starting that from the very beginning with that concept of experience ecosystem that it is exactly that that the finance team who may never see a guest, a customer, a passenger or a patient has such a deep impact on that. I like the idea, that experience ecosystem.

Shawn Nason: 8:02

And what I tell people in that when you talk about those people that don't necessarily touch those guests, members, customers, then that's an issue. Right? Because you need to go where they are. So when I was having a bad day, or, you know, I would leave a meeting where, you know, we had to make budget decisions and, and make hard decisions. There were many times Rick, I would take off my name badge. And I would slip out on one of my offices I had was really fortunate I had an office in Florida at you know, I was in Epcot and Magic Kingdom studios, at Animal Kingdom, I had offices and all those, I could step out of my office and walk into the park. Nice. And that's when I would look at the kids, the parents the smiles and go. Okay, that was a really hard decision we had to make, but ultimately, it's going to be better. Good. And that's what I tell people. Yeah, you know, if you sit in finance in a corporation, go find where your customers go find where your member is, and go learn from them.

Rick Denton: 9:13

Gosh, there's so much. It's I asked you one question. And we've already hit some of the major themes that are so true about customer experience, get out there and actually be in the world of customers.

Shawn Nason: 9:23

And it's not a VOC program.

Rick Denton: 9:25

No, no,

Shawn Nason: 9:26

it's just me say that is not a voc program. Yeah. And that may be controversial in the industry. Because it's great to have a voc program. But that's not that's not living and walking in their shoes.

Rick Denton: 9:39

Yeah, it's funny, Sean, you say controversial, I think it's it's controversial if it's presented as an or statement. So I talk a lot about total voice of the customer. And yes, I actually think that getting out there embedding yourself into the customer is part of voice of the customer but only when you view it in that universal total voc approach as opposed to just a series some surveys or a little bit of social media listening, or what that is getting out there. And living the life of the customer is how you capture those customer is one of the ways you can capture that customer voice. Love it. Now this is going to be a big switch. We're talking about Disney, we're talking about, well, maybe not a switch, actually, now that I think about this, but you had shared with me in our pre call that you had some very, very direct exposure to the neuro diverse community. And I have to be very transparent. I have to admit guilt here. I haven't spent much time considering that from a customer experience perspective. So I'm really curious, what are your perspectives, living in that community? experiencing that? So how does that affect your perspective on customer experience, experience design, when you think of the neuro diverse community?

Shawn Nason: 10:44

Well, so I will admit guilt, just as you admit, when I started in this field, you know, 15 years ago, I wouldn't have had that lens, but very fortunate to my family. Seven years ago, my wife and I adopted our son. And we adopted him as a baby brought him home from the hospital. And through that journey came to learn that his special gifts in neurodiversity, and those are he has childhood apraxia. So he has speech issues, that led into finding another diagnosis with autism. And just in the last year, he was diagnosed with epilepsy. So you have a seven year old perspective. And then we have a 14 year old daughter, who is adopted as well, who have severe ADHD, and some anxiety disorder. Okay. And then my wife and I both think we both have adult ADHD too, so a lot of neurodiversity in our home. So you can only imagine some of the craziness of times. You are amazed what it does when you don't have the ability to go into a restaurant. Because you don't know how your autistic child is going to behave. Or go on a vacation or go get their hair cut. Because it's sensory overload for them, right. And so people say to me, and it's going to tie back to Disney. I hate to keep doing this, but my wife and I have turned in we as a family have turned into a cruise family. And we take Disney cruises. And the reason we take Disney cruises is it meets each of our neurodiversity in some aspect. So just recently, the beginning of August, in between my treatments. We were very honored and privileged to be on the new Disney wish the newest ship for Disney. And what happens we call it the Disney Magic. Every cruise we go along every time we interact with Disney, our seven year old son blossoms and takes a step further. It's because they treat him just as anyone else. If not treated as a kid with special needs. He's not looked at differently. They just treat him as a seven year old boy who's on these cruise ships. And the new Disney cruise ship has this ability. When you check them into the kids club. They actually can go down a slide. Okay, the kids club from one deck to the next deck. Doesn't sound like a big deal. But you have no idea how that met his need as a sensory. He loves slides. So when he wanted to go to the kids club, he would say you know Daddy, Mommy, auntie, can I go slide? That meant Can I go to the kids club? Can I go spend time there and on this particular cruise Rick, he spent hours in the kids club five and six hours for an autistic child apraxia child, even with his you know his dish, his issues with seizures and epilepsy. It was amazing to watch him blossom and learn and do new things. And so every place I go now I stop and think not just for him but for the whole neurodiverse community. How is this setup for them and a prime example and restaurants? Restaurants are really loud? Yeah. Yes with people. Yeah. Well then if you add music on top of that. It's really really loud. So if your music is loud and your restaurants loud My family can't visit your restaurant. Yeah. Because my son can't handle it. So we have very few restaurants in the city of Cincinnati that we can go visit and take him into where we don't have to worry about him hitting sensory overload. Yeah. So when I walk into restaurants and it, it feels hip and cool, and it's like that, I also stop and think, who are they not going to serve? Because of that?

Rick Denton: 15:27

Shawn, there's a lot in there. Like, I wouldn't want to almost just sit for a little bit here and think about it. But I'm thinking about both the Disney and then the restaurant experience that you're describing there. And I would imagine, at least I'm assuming that the restaurant didn't go into this, saying, Hey, we just don't care about that community, but rather, they just probably aren't thinking about the community. In the reverse. Do you think that Disney is is there an active and I don't want to make this all about Disney. But just in the example, do you think there's a conscious choice? That they're saying, hey, we want to design this for a neuro diverse community? Or is it more general that it's just being sensitive and aware of the wide diversity that exists in the human population?

Shawn Nason: 16:09

I think it's probably more than wide diversity. But I will get up and we'll go away from Disney. I'll give you a very, a very specific example where I do think it's very much designed, and they're very conscious of it. So we live in Cincinnati, Ohio, and for our son, it's easy to drive about four or five hours. That's his limit. Well, five hours from us of Gatlinburg, Tennessee. Dollywood. Yep. So, Dollywood was the first theme park in our country to build a sensory room for children and for people with neurodiversity with sensory overload, huh? Okay, so he loves to go to Dollywood just as much as he loves to go to Disney. We love taking him there. It's not loud, they play music, but they play it softly. He can ride rides there. But then if he gets overloaded, myself or my wife can go into that sensory room and let him decompress. Wow. And it's a specific room there. And they're very aware of that. So when you come into the park, you can get a card that says, you know, this child have, you know, or an adult, not just a child, yeah, have a neurodiverse and give you that permission and grants. And they're very aware of that. And they built that for the park.

Rick Denton: 17:35

So it's in that case, it's a conscious choice. And they were first I must admit, I'm actually getting some chills here. Listen to the story. I'm not that's not blowing sunshine Up yours or the listeners Fanny right now I really am getting chills thinking about the level of concern and interest and just focus there. And I don't want to leave this topic just yet. Because I'm thinking what's missing and experienced design when I think about an entire population beings not being told directly. But through your own experience basically being told, you can't dine at this restaurant, you can go to this restaurant, and I'm sure not every restaurant will be there for every person. But I wonder on the flip side, is there an opportunity here? Like should there be a heck of a lot more experienced design focused on neurodiversity?

Shawn Nason: 18:18

I think so because I think we live in. I'm almost 50 years old. And I think when we were kids, it was just undiagnosed. Yeah. Right. Yeah. You know, he's really hyper. I do think that there's a huge opportunity to for people just to be aware that when you're designing things, think about the neurodiverse community, and it's not just the child with autism, ADHD, it's all diverse, all of neurodiversity. And listen, I am thankful right? Let me tell you, our son is a high functioning autistic child. We have some friends in Cincinnati, whose son is nonverbal, not high functioning. And when I think my, when I think things are bad for us, at times, I think of them and think of what they have to go through to make his life easier. You know, but like, I found a found a barber shop that has two chairs in it. That is quiet. They will typically play music, but they know when my son comes in, they turn the music off, see? And so we always booked the first appointment on a Saturday. When we take him in to get his haircut. He now knows his barbers name. He comes in, he says barbers name. He hops up in the chair. He knows what to do. But three years ago, no joke there was a point when we were almost having to put him in a headlock to get his hair cut. He was green. And we were taking him to the shop where my wife gets her hairstyle. Right. So I had to look and find this place, but we found it. And they've catered to meet his needs. And now he enjoys to get his haircut and it's not a fight.

Rick Denton: 20:17

Yeah. And you know what I'm thinking about here. And we'll leave it. I realized now we probably should have had an entire episode just talking about neurodiversity. You and I may talk again sometime, Shawn, because I think there's so much more we can even unpack here. But some of the thought that came to mind is, not only are we talking about designing this for the benefit of the neurodiverse individual, but when there's parents involved when there's family involved, my gosh, how delightful that must be for you to know that I can safely securely and comfortably. Have my child get a haircut on a Saturday, and know that it is going to be a positive experience. That's got to be such a relief, not just oh are the individual but the parent.

Shawn Nason: 20:53

Yeah, well, that's why we cruise. Yeah. My son of those spend six hours in the kids club. It's a dream for every parent, right? And I have fought a 14 year old who doesn't want to be around her parents, right? Like every 14 year old. So she's someplace else on the ship. Guess what? My wife and I can sit on the deck and sip drinks, and enjoy that time or take a nap. Yeah, whatever. Knowing our kids are okay. So yeah, people don't realize the relief that that brings to parents

Rick Denton: 21:24

and the wallets that you're opening as a result so that there isn't a massive

Shawn Nason: 21:28

Yeah because price doesn't matter.

Rick Denton: 21:30

Yes, you don't care. there just spend it all.

Shawn Nason: 21:32

Doesn't matter how much it is. You figure out how to make more money or save more, or do it less often, to have those moments of

Rick Denton: 21:41

brilliant. Yeah, absolutely beautiful. This is a massive pivot. But there's some problem with you, Shawn, as you've gotten such a creative background, that I'm not entirely sure where to focus. But that musical and ministry experience fascinates me. Just in general, we're all connected in that. But the touring aspects, I have to imagine it really opened your eyes. As you're traveling all over the country of the country here in the case be in the US. What did you learn as you were doing that kind of travel experience passing through these various parts of the country? And would you learn about yourself when you were doing that kind of travel?

Shawn Nason: 22:14

I think that prepared me for what I do today. Let me say that, um, because when you travel all over the country, and I've been very fortunate to travel globally, as well. You learn to meet people where they are. And take those expectations away. And as you mentioned, I have a ministry background. I tell people, I have a pastor's heart. And that's the reason that I've used the hashtag experienced evangelist, right? My heart is for people and to see people succeed and soar and fly. And so my team will tell you, I do more pastoring day to day, then I do what people would call traditional work, right? Because we work with clients, and I have a team that executes amazingly. But even on my drive this morning, I had a leader call me who just needed to talk and vent over something. And I, as I tell people, I put my pastor Sean hat on. And I let them talk and I walked him through the situation. And that's, that's what I think we need in our industry more than anything. And you you'll hear me speak and I love to ruffle people's feathers and the disruptor. You know, I hate matrix or metrics, I think NPS CSAT all those things are are just BS, because they don't show the heart of people. And you need to know the heart of people before you can create an experience that the person wants.

Rick Denton: 24:02

Now, Shawn, there's a little bit of a change of pace here. And I gotta imagine, especially when you're talking at a tour bus because I think you're either on a pre call, but I think you talked about it's a tour bus. So there weren't a lot of first class lounges. But let's just imagine that you have this opportunity for the first class lounge and you do today so let's take a little break. We'll move quickly here and hopefully have a little bit of fun. What is a dream travel location from your past?

Shawn Nason: 24:25

Sydney, Australia.

Rick Denton: 24:27

Okay, what specifically?

Shawn Nason: 24:29

I'm scared of heights. But I challenged myself and I climbed the outer frame of the Sydney bridge.

Rick Denton: 24:39

nice.

Shawn Nason: 24:39

I don't know that I'll ever do it again because I did it once

Rick Denton: 24:42

done one and done well that that had to been a stunning view is thinking then towards the future. What's a dream travel location you've not been to yet? New Zealand. Okay, we'll just hop right one over.

Shawn Nason: 24:54

Right right

Rick Denton: 24:55

over what about New Zealand?

Shawn Nason: 24:58

The beauty of it The you know, that whole area is just fascinating and beautiful. And I think the people of New Zealand, from what I have seen are just powerful. And they love each other and they appreciate each other. And I have a wife who loves the Hobbit. Okay, so she wants to go

Rick Denton: 25:21

yeah, get your Tolkien in as you wander the The Lord of the Rings and all that is

Shawn Nason: 25:28

to go explore.

Rick Denton: 25:29

What is a favorite thing of yours to eat?

Shawn Nason: 25:32

cheeseburgers.

Rick Denton: 25:33

Sweet fancy Moses. I am with you, sir. Yes. Don't even ask a follow up. Yes. cheeseburgers. What? Uh, on the other side, what is the thing your parents forced you to eat but you hated as a kid?

Shawn Nason: 25:46

salmon patties?

Rick Denton: 25:48

Oh, my gosh, I haven't heard anybody say that. But I remember these. I like the salmon out of the jar. And

Shawn Nason: 25:53

out of they can cornmeal together and fryer.

Rick Denton: 25:59

I would imagine Sam and done that way, perhaps with a little different ingredients might be yummy. But you are bringing back some bad memories. Shawn, what is one travel item not including your phone that you will not leave home without

Shawn Nason: 26:11

my fan.

Rick Denton: 26:18

Shawn you and I actually came to know each other through a LinkedIn post. It was one of those very organic things, you said something, I commented on it. And it had to do with a particular patient experience that you had had well experienced. And that just like the neurodiversity topic, patient experience could be its own episode, and actually, probably even its own podcast series. So any listener, you want to launch something focus on patient experience, because we desperately need some help. But you've got this unique perspective with both your experience expertise Disney Innovation Officer and all the others. But then you're an actual patient of the system. Why is patient experience so broken?

Shawn Nason: 26:55

Yeah, I wish that was an easy answer. An easy fix, right? So I've spent probably a good 10 years really working in health care. And I thought I understood patient experience. really did. I thought I understood it. But April 15 of this year, I heard those words, you've got cancer. And at that moment, patient experience became very different. Yeah. It was about how do I save my life? How do I not die from this? How do I still be a father, a husband, a business owner? How do I do all of that. And I started down the journey. And it was unbelievable to me how sophisticated I know the system is. But I went through my surgery have the tumor removed, and then the words came that you have to have chemotherapy. And our particular hospital system in Cincinnati doesn't have oncologists. So you have to go to a private oncology practice. So I remember walking in to my first time and to the oncologist and starting the process of when chemo will start and all that. I remember answering all these questions. And we all know this. We've all done this 100 times, right? All the same questions, all the same stuff. And I stopped and I said, Why can't you just look that up in the system? And the lady stopped me and said, Well, you know, we're a private group. And we chose to build our own electronic health record system. And I stopped and I said, and forgive me for saying it this way. But I said, Well, that was really stupid. Yeah, because we have, like it or not. We have big systems out there epic Cerner, like all these big EHR systems, and you choose to go spend money on a new system, to then make the patient have to go through the journey again, and talk about the same things again. And again, like I said, I thought I understood patient experience. But every time I had to talk about it, I was like, this is depressing. Yeah, I just want to I want to know what I gotta do to get fixed. Right and get well and what this journey is gonna look like. But I'm at and get it asked the same questions over and over again. And I remember sitting there filling out the paperwork, and because I do know a lot about patient spirits, I remember walking into the room and my oncologist came in, and I said, you just need to know that in your paperwork, you have two HIPAA violations and you need to get those fixed.

Rick Denton: 29:53

The oncologist is looking at you. deer in headlights are glazed over like

Shawn Nason: 29:58

the doctors like we probably should get The Practice Manager and to talk to you.

Rick Denton: 30:01

Yeah, exactly. There's so much more. Gosh, maybe Shawn, maybe we will we may do another episode just I'd love to. But what I what I heard you say in there, and it's such a cliche and customer experience. But what it sounds like is let's use your example there the private electronic system, that probably was a really, really good system for that practice. I did absolutely nothing for the patient. Exactly. And the whole thing was designed with this Inside Out View, right, we've we've used this term instead of the outside in view. Yeah, I don't remember the specific story that triggered our opportunity to get to know each other. But I remember thinking that same thought, when I was looking at that, oh, and I think it was an insurance change or provider was not able to be moved from one to the other or something along those lines. And this whole thing just seems so set up in a way that the patient is always going to be on the losing end. And I actually come from a medical background, not myself, but my father was a physician back in the Think of the 70s, the 80s and the early 90s. Well, it was different than he started his own practice, it was kind of more patient related now that it's become more of a industry. It just seems to have lost the patient and all of this.

Shawn Nason: 31:15

Well, a prime example of this is this private practice has a patient portal and an app. Right. But I couldn't get access to it until after my first visit. They wouldn't give me access. But if they would have given me access beforehand, I could have answered all those questions and put all that information in the system at my pace, at my timing, and been able to then use that. And that was one of the things I said to him. I'm like this great for you guys. But it's not great for us as a patient

Rick Denton: 31:49

No, if it's take a question that you don't know, you know, I don't really remember what year I had my tonsils out. But if I'm sitting at home, I might be able to find that out. Which was a lot longer ago than I want to admit. But regardless, it is something that is that exactly that that focus on the patient. Yeah, we will find a way, Shawn.

Shawn Nason: 32:08

Well, we'll get together.

Rick Denton: 32:09

Let's do it. Let's do a road tour. Let's let's get on the road. Let's try to talk about road. Let's get back on the road. Hey, I do want to close that we're we're past time, but I don't care. I've enjoyed this conversations more than I'd even want to ask you about. But let's close out by talking about Mophie. How do you truly get companies to action? Right. That's the it's great to talk about an experience ecosystem. But so what if you're talking about it? How do you get them to actually reimagine it and do something about it?

Shawn Nason: 32:37

Yes. So this is where I get really controversial in our industry, because it's not, it's not about processes. It's not about metrics, okay. It's not about reporting. It's really about shifting mindsets, and heart sets of an organization and my, my business partner, Michael, and a very dear friend of mine, Robin, we wrote a book during the pandemic called Kiss your dragons, okay. And it's about embracing the fears, and the things that you're scared of the most in your heart and in your mind. And that's really what happens in an organization. So when we come in as a company, we want to address your heart sets in your mindsets. More importantly, than processes and metrics, we'll get to those. But if you don't make a shift to think differently, it's just going to be the same old sandal, and it's going to be a check the box experience. You know, I joke with people, I can tell people hand me your org chart. And I can tell you within minutes of how important experience is to them

Rick Denton: 33:47

Oh, very true. Very true, Shawn. I can't my gosh, it's one of those that like each of these answers or conversations we're having is some something incredibly deep and that idea of focus on the mindset focus on that. And I'll say, from my perspective, I actually think it's both I'm much more of an Android guy than an org guy. In many cases, it could be the improv classes, they always say do yes. And and all Yeah. But the idea of focusing on that heart, that the mindset shift that's so important, and I think it gets overlooked in so many, so many different companies. Shawn, what a great conversation today. How can people get in touch with you to learn more to have these kinds of great conversations and learn more about you and your company?

Shawn Nason: 34:32

Yeah, so you can either go to www.mofi.co or you can just go to SeanNason.com. And if that's not easy to remember, you can go to experience evangelist.com And it'll take you to my website and thank you for having me on here was fun, and yeah, have more conversation with you, man.

Rick Denton: 34:54

I'll get all of that into the show notes and and a link to kiss your dragons the book as well. I didn't know about that one. So I'm gonna I have to go check that out as well. I'm looking forward to exploring that. But John, thank you so much for the conversation today. It was absolutely delightful. I've learned a crapload probably not a phrase I say often you've given me the opportunity to put the first explicit flag on any of my episodes. And I applaud you for doing that, Shawn. I'll have to check the box on my uploads, but that's going to be fun to check that for the first time. Thank you so much for our conversations with Sean. Sean.

Shawn Nason: 35:23

Thank you.

Rick Denton: 35:27

Thanks for joining us this week on CX Passport. Make sure to visit our website cxpassport.com where you can hit subscribe so you'll never miss a show. While you're at it, you can check out the rest of the EX4CX website. If you're looking to get real about customer experience, EX4CX is available to help you increase revenue by starting to listen to your customers and create great experiences for every customer every time. Thanks for listening to CX Passport and be sure to tune in for our next episode. Until next time, I'm Rick Denton, and I believe the best meals are served outside and require a passport.