Rick Denton: 0:05

You're listening to CX Passport, the show about creating great customer experiences with a dash of travel talk. Each episode we’ll talk with our guests about great CX, travel...and just like the best journeys, explore new directions we never anticipated. I'm your host Rick Denton. I believe the best meals are served outside and require a passport. Let's get going. CX passport guests typically come at the recommendation of former guests in what has to be one of the most CX passports, the introduction and guests scheduling threads. Today's guest Fred Shadding was introduced to me by a former episode guests from South Africa, Clinton Cohen, way back in episode 28. And then Fred and I had to wait for the chance to record this episode. Until after Fred finished a fantastic trip to Morocco. The heart of CX passport comes from a global perspective on customer experience. And we will have that for sure today. Fred is the founder and chief advisor for the call center source dedicated to advising brands on their ideal contact center options with a focus on partnering brands and BPOS into a mutually beneficial relationship. It's not my way of thinking. But we know there's a train of thought out there that there's a risk of a degradation in customer experience when a company chooses to outsource. When I talked with Fred, he reinforced my view that in so many cases, there's a great opportunity to improve a brand's customer service experience by choosing an excellent BPO partner. Additionally, Fred and I got to talking about something near and dear to my heart, the importance of the front line, it's so rewarding when I get to have a guest who demonstrates the awareness of the value of the frontline, and how they are the epicenter of where customer experience gets created, especially in a contact center environment. It did not pay me one bit to wait to record, Fred once I heard why there'd be a delay between our meeting and his availability. Morocco. Thank you. I want to hear about that. And I'm sure listeners you do too, Fred. Welcome to CX passport.

Fred Shadding: 2:10

Hey, thanks for having me, Rick should be fun.

Rick Denton: 2:13

I'm looking forward. And you know, I'm already itching to get to Morocco. But we got to talk business. First, we got to talk about customer experience, we got to talk BPO. And in a way, you're the BPO whisperer. Tell me what that means to you. Why are BPOS potentially the right solution for brands to improve their customer service experience?

Fred Shadding: 2:30

I work with BPOS, you know, on a constant basis. And my goal really is to understand, you know, what their strengths and weaknesses are Rick there like 1000 BPOS, worldwide. And it's just impossible to get through that noise and understand, you know, who's who and what's what. And that's really what we do here at the call center sources to help companies get through that noise so they can make good decisions and give them that operational agility that they can get from a BPO.

Rick Denton: 3:04

What that noise is something that's coming to mind there, and is it is the noise, primarily just the sheer volume, that if I'm a brand, let's say I'm a midsize brand, maybe even a larger brand, right? And I decide that I think I want to do this. What is that noise that I'm trying to wade through? And how do you help me get through that?

Fred Shadding: 3:23

Yes, we could do it. Yes, we have the capabilities, you know, yes, we can save you cost. That's not a comment that is void at any BPO. And they all kind of say similar things. Which one is right for you. To give you some examples. There are companies that on an enterprise level, you know, want to work with folks that have Enterprise strengths. So you're going to look for those type of BPOS that have the ability to work with scale, you know, hundreds of 1000s of seats in there out there, then there are those organizations that are looking for someone to help me with my seasonality is something that comes and goes. So you're going to look for those that have scalability, but flexibility to come on and off, you know, volumes and then there's those that are going to be focused on a specific niche, like a certain area category, like health care insurance or financial services, that may have a steady state number, you know, maybe 5060 100 agents year round, but a specific focus on like agent licensing or could be a certain health care niche that they need to make sure that the BPO has a stern fan, and they're going to look for that. So it's about making sure that number one, the thing that I do most is listen to what the client is looking for, then certainly identify those BPO partners that fit the approach that they're looking for some may be looking for cost reduction, so they could be looking to go nearshore offshore, some may be looking for you know scale some may be looking for a number of things. And so all those things coming together make sense for the game plan in which, you know, we approach you know, these endeavors with with referrals.

Rick Denton: 5:10

You said something there that reminded me of what actually before even say that this idea of matching and I think that's it's the matchmaker heck, there's a particular show that's getting some traction on Netflix right now that refers to relationship matchmaking. But no plugs for them. But anyway, those that know will certainly know what I'm talking about. But that idea of even getting down to industry specific matches, there was a former guest, Jose Odetta, who Episode 77, I think it was so relatively recently, and he actually tries to have his employees of the BPO matched to brands that they enjoy. So if they are really into pets, then they're going to try to work for a pet supply company or something along those lines. So you can get to that sort of niche where you even deal with employees at the BPO that are attracted to what your brand is,

Fred Shadding: 6:06

it's like a real estate agent, you know, I parallel what I do like that, you know, you might be looking for a house with 3000 square feet, four bedrooms, three baths, two car garage, at a certain price in a certain location, you can go to the internet pressure, look there, you know, maybe you can find something or you can find someone who can give you a bit more of a strategic approach, and identify maybe five houses to start with, and then go from there. Very similar to what I do, you know, I listen to clients understand what they need, put out there, you know, a noiseless list of initial BPOS, you know, to start with based on what you're looking for, and then we go,

Rick Denton: 6:46

I like that the noiseless list, if it were easy to say, I might make that the title of the episode, but I don't think I can't go that route. So let's talk about BPOS and customer experience in general. So I'd mentioned it in the intro. But there is that perception, and I realize it's ebbed and flowed over time. But that perception that a BPO going that direction, could lessen the customer experience. So how do you help companies, companies that are considering this option overcome that perception that a BPO is going to deliver a lesser customer service experience than what that brand could offer themselves.

Fred Shadding: 7:20

I mean, it's very real. So I don't dissuade the argument. It's really, but most companies know what they know, you know, within their own internal tribal knowledge that sometimes can obscure the opportunities that they may have for enhancement, what I try to do is teach them to kind of understand and accept that there is power in experience. When you're dealing with a BPO partner, typically, you are not the only client, meaning they have worked for years, and may currently be working with similar clients with similar challenges with similar perceptions on the front end, that said that our internal agents, you know, are going to be better than yours, just because, you know, they carry our flag. And that experiences they have had has, in many cases turned upside down. Some of the client experiences, you know, that they actually deliver upon, because once they realize that the BPO, in many cases, has better training, better technology, better facilities, you know, a better, you know, touch with people like you that understand, you know, the value of customer experience, the value of voice of customer and deliver upon that every day, then they can really interpret what potentially working with the BPO can do for them. So I try to work with them to help them understand that the BPO is going to give them that agility. Whereas if you kept it in house, you know, come peak season, you have to do your own internal recruiting and things like that, and you know, all that other stuff that comes with it, you have to be responsible for your own technology upgrades, you have to know what the latest and greatest, you know, tools are out there. And the other thing too, is the loss of control argument that comes with the perception that BPOS can do it better, has kind of been turned upside down because of COVID. You know, COVID has taught companies that remote operations management can be effective as well as cost cost beneficial, you know, you know, 10 years ago, get that remote agent stuff out of here, right? You know, many financial services companies, people that work with credit cards were like, I don't want to do that, because you know, it just doesn't seem safe. COVID threw that out the door. And so when you look at companies that are working remotely now, there's no different in terms of how they manage those remote employees than if they work with an outsourcer. So very much has that perception maintain its realness and it's there and it's an argument that you have to at least try to get people to see the other side of but it's one that is a bit more digestible and palatable, you know, for folks in this 2020 and beyond to understand that the, you know, outsourcing environment is one that carries a lot of benefits, both in terms of your agility, your ability to remove that burden of recruitment and things of that nature, from your internal Center, as well as tap into the experience that they have, by working with brands have similar context and content. And they can, you know, parlay some of that experience over to delivering upon your brand.

Your CX Passport Captain: 10:30

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Rick Denton: 10:56

I want to I want to say stay a little bit in that that latter space there perhaps the experience part of it. And the experience of the brand itself and what the that not that I'm not the brand, but the experience of the BPO. And there is that sort of unique relationship that exists there. And because they're the ones that are delivering the cut, let's take a customer service, particularly situation, that BPO is often closer to the customer than the brand itself. And so we've you and I have previously talked about how frontline is so vital just in general, forget about BPO relationships, just the frontline is where experience happens. But especially in the context of the BPO it's also a really good source of voice of the customer. So thinking of both voice of the customer and even beyond voice the customer. You know, how can BPOS help the their clients, the brands improve the brand's overall customer experience?

Fred Shadding: 11:52

I've got some great examples, but one that just comes to mind is a technology that's been pretty popular and, you know, more progressively used over the last three, four years and that speech analytics, yeah, right. You know, I had a, I had a client who was up and down, can't beat our internal center where they you know what, right. And we were able to put them with an outsourcer that had leverage speech analytics within their business totally blew them away, to see what customers you know, we're saying on a call by call basis, not just on their own internal process, which was the old school, we, you know, we record three, four calls per agent per month score them, and we know, we're good because our quality is good. Every single call is recorded and speech analytics, every single call is mapped on a word chart. And now in real time, they can see what people are saying you can click a button drill down, you know, to the call, and they now had immediate access, immediate access to what was being said about their product about their offer about why somebody was canceling and can then leverage that internally to deliver you know, better messaging in their in their marketing, and better responses in their customer service experience. And that in turn, you know, resulted in about a 15% increase in what they were scoring as their customer experience. So that one example with the BPO just leveraging what I mentioned earlier, the technology that not all internal centers are able to keep abreast of. But as a service provider, if you want to be good, you have no choice but to stay on the leading edge of technology. Yeah, that's one of the you know, great examples that I can give, it's just you know, and for me, it's common, because I see it all the time speech analytics, but you'll be surprised when you're going from an in house center, operating for 20 years in house, and then going, you know, to a BPO you get to really see what their internal philosophies have been. And what they've been, again, like I said that internal tribal knowledge kind of obscures some of the progress because this is how we do it. So we always do it spine, no one's complaining numbers are good, blah, blah, blah, but there's always, always something that can give you that little lift that simple, nothing changed. It's just we wrap some technology over your call to say, hey, we let you take a look at this and see if you can do something with it. And that word sharp, just really, you know, just kind of turned them upside down.

Rick Denton: 14:26

It is I to having lived in this world for a while. I'm surprised when I find that speech analytics, for example is not particularly well known. But I imagine some of that too comes from there's been a dramatic improvement in that tool over the even the last few years and certainly if you look back even further than that, because sentiment and the like the same word can mean a lot based off of the tone and as as those tools have improved. I want to I want to ask you about tools a little bit here in the sense of tools are good for One purpose, right, they get you started. But it's the usage of those tools and how you use those. Have you seen examples where the BPOS have been particularly instrumental back to their clients, in helping them improve their customer experience by even helping them do better with their tools. So yay, that you have a voice, the customer tool, but then here's how a mature organization uses it, it's almost like reverse consulting, if you will, the BPO guiding the client that way.

Fred Shadding: 15:28

I've seen it in quarterly business reviews, where BPOS, you know, obviously meet with their clients, and they go through the deluge of would happen in a quarter, and kind of break down some of the tools that they use and how they use it and offer these types of recommendations to clients to identify ways in which they can, you know, better score, better performance, manage, you know, their internal centers, by looking at what they are doing, you know, as a third party outsourcer and complement to their centers. So I've seen how that has parlayed into, you know, better experiences, you know, with their internal centers, as well. It happens, you know, quite regularly, and I think, those that are astute when going into a BPO relationship, try to press that button, you know, with the BPO say, Hey, this is what we're doing, we're going to be open to your suggestions. We know what we know, because this is how we've done it, haven't really gone off the cliff yet, but want to see what is new out there. And that's why we're hiring you to deliver upon what we're delivering on the way in which we are. But we need you to help us understand what's you know, what's the next vision, you know, what's the next level? And so happens happens quite regularly.

Rick Denton: 16:45

I could see that that, hey, BPO, I'm choosing you. And by the way, I'm expecting you not just to answer my calls, but rather teach me how to do things. Alright, I can't wait any longer. I just simply can't. I don't have much more to frame this question up other than Morocco. That's not my dream travel list for sure. So I'm just going to kick back I'm going to enjoy for a little bit and just tell me about that recent trip of yours.

Fred Shadding: 17:07

It was absolutely incredible. The impetus of the trip, by the way was my wife and I were celebrating our 30 year anniversary. All right, it was a real exciting journey for us. And you know, like so many people, you know, in 30 years, you know, we check the box on, you know, the Caribbean and you know, all the other really nice locations that we've gone to on vacation. And for this one, we wanted to do something that was really unfamiliar, yeah, something that was really exotic, and Morocco. You know, check all the boxes. We spent two weeks I just got back last week. We stayed in about six residences and visited about 10 different cities. My favorite stop on the journey was we spent the night in the middle of the Sahara desert for my wife's birthday, which was also during that week we had Yeah, we had to drive like eight hours, all the way up to the Western Sahara. And then we had to take a four by four to the middle of the desert. And it was just absolutely incredible. The silence was was interesting. Waking up in the morning, not even a bird chirping nothing absolutely silent, but it was it was incredibly gorgeous. We stayed in I don't know how they did it. But you know, we stayed at a camp and you know, they're made for this right? It was a desert desert resort. So the tent we stayed in was better than some some really nice hotel. Right. So it was a bit of glamour.

Rick Denton: 18:44

Eight hours out in the desert. I not looking to pop up my little Coleman tent. .

Fred Shadding: 18:50

Yeah, so we watched, we watched the sun down on top of windows and it was just an incredible experience but the topography that was something else that surprised me about Morocco. When you think of Morocco like me, I thought arid desert, you know probably some really cool beaches and stuff like that I did a little bit of research but again, we wanted to make the experience somewhat familiar. And as we started to travel to these different cities they're completely forested areas of Morocco which I had no idea

Rick Denton: 19:18

that shows my ignorance to Fred wow

Fred Shadding: 19:21

yeah, they have they have snow during the during the wintertime and these mountains that we went to the Atlas Mountains there are incredible beaches you know, we went to one location we went to was a car eight been eight men huddled up back I can't remember the name but Okay. Was this film, Troy a bunch of movies? It's just just incredible. And the food, the food, I mean, it just never stopped coming. The way the Moroccans kind of serve everything seems to be like a five or six course. You know situation. But it was just an incredible Your incredible journey. I think it's it's a place that, you know if you can get there, get there gotta spend at least a week, you know, we spent two weeks and it's still, you know, as we mentioned into a new city, a new area, it was much more interesting than the last

Rick Denton: 20:24

Well, Fred, and for listeners, Fred and I are talking to each other in the US, Fred over on the east coast i in the central USA. And so, getting to Morocco is a bit of a hike. And it can I'm sure that journey wore you out at times, Fred. And so I'd imagine that a first class lounge sounded nice to you from time to time. So how about you join me here in the first class lounge we'll move quickly here and hopefully have a little bit of fun. What is a dream travel location from your past, and it might be what we just talked about,

Fred Shadding: 20:50

I probably have to go with Antigua it's a it was the first real vacation my wife and I had after we got married, we were dirt poor, broke pretty much both in school at the time when we got married. So we never really had an opportunity to go anywhere. And Antigua was special. We went to sandals and it was just a beautiful location. ,

Rick Denton: 21:11

Oh man. Antigua is great. What a great memory for you to have that trip from your past. Now looking forward what is a dream travel vacation you've not been to yet?

Fred Shadding: 21:19

Without hesitation Greece, I'm just floored with the historic value of it. The beauty of it the waters, the you know, the archipelago of islands and everything. So it's definitely on my hit list. I'm going to get there God willing. No, but Greece is definitely there.

Rick Denton: 21:36

It what you need to somehow grow the the BPO industry in Greece and there you can have a reason to head over there. Right. Well, maybe get that started for you.

Fred Shadding: 21:46

There are a couple of call centers in Cyprus. Let's close so maybe I could find her. You know, find a partner over there

Rick Denton: 21:51

you go. Let's, let's let's leverage that idea. You talked about the food and Morocco and that's one of the beauties of travel. What is a favorite thing of yours to eat?

Fred Shadding: 21:59

Without a doubt, natural mint chocolate chip ice cream. That's my thing. 100% Anybody who knows me knows that's my thing. Mint Chocolate Chip. Not the green stuff. The natural

Rick Denton: 22:11

listen to you nah...don't give me thae green stuff I'm a Blue Bell Ice Cream lover, but it's green. And so don't give me that green stuff. That's That's brilliant. Love it. Well, on the other side, Fred, what is the thing your

Fred Shadding: 22:24

What else liver man,

Rick Denton: 22:26

liver, you were forced to eat that I hear about parents forced you to eat? But you hate it as a kid? it, but you had to eat it. Wow.

Fred Shadding: 22:30

My parents are from the south in some kind of, you know, boondoggle. Urban legend said if you eat liver, it makes your body better. I don't know. But it it just so that hey,

Rick Denton: 22:44

Fred, you and I are more similar than we realize. So growing up in Texas and having some Southern Heritage as well my my mom loved liver and onions. And we'd go to Luby's the cafeteria. And she'd always get liver and onions. And sometimes liver made it to the plate at the house. I'd forgotten about that in an earlier episode. But now I'm visualizing that liver. And it was somehow it got to where this is healthy food. That it's you're healthier? Because the more I think about it like it not the filter for poisons in the body. And we're just chugging in a bunch of the poison filter. But yeah, not good stuff. Not good

Fred Shadding: 23:20

Not for me

Rick Denton: 23:22

All right, with all your global travels, or even local travels, what is one travel item, not including your phone, you will not leave home without

Fred Shadding: 23:30

my wireless battery pack charger that has been a lifesaver. So you're not acting like the kind of a crackhead in the airport searching for an outlet.

Rick Denton: 23:45

Now, Fred, we've seen those folks walking around the airport that is for sure. Now, I'm gonna I want to ask you about a question that's it's got it's in my mind right now, because it's a little interesting. When you and I talked, you'd mentioned a technology that I'd never heard of before. So it was completely brand new to me when we talked auto tune for accents. Now, since you and I taught, I've actually seen that technologies have some very highly visible moments of controversy. So I'm actually fascinated both by just the simple, pure technology that fascinates me. But I'm actually interested in the very uncomfortable ethics of this tool. Tell me more about this tool, and what are you seeing as its future? If it has one?

Fred Shadding: 24:26

Yeah. I'm back and forth with it. And just so your audience who understands what we're talking about is a technology that I was exposed to at a recent, you know, major call center event. And I went through a demo of this technology and what it does, it allows people say in the demo that I had, I was talking to someone from from India. And he had a very, you know, he had a distinguishable Indian accent. And as I was speaking to him part of the demo, he said, You know, I'm about to turn the technology on. Are you You ready? And I said, Yeah, he turned it on the guy sound like he was from Omaha. That distinguishable Indian accent just went flat. And then on the flip side, he said, Would you like to hear the female voice? Click the button, that same person is now talking as a female Gentlelady, from Florida or whatever. And so, the the opportunity, you know, within a context and environment is that one of the biggest challenges, you know, hurdles, you know, concerns that people have with working offshore is the fact that as soon as you, you know, say hello, you know, your customer can distinguish this, someone is not calling from the US. So you wrap the technology around it, it makes him sound as if they're very, very distinguishable. It doesn't sound you know, like they're talking to a computer. And so it, it screams of kind of, I hate to say it, it screams with deep fake, you know, it really does. And I know, that's what some of them because I've followed too. That's some of the controversy and you know, the future of the technology. I think it has one, I don't know yet how it's going to play out. I have heard from this provider, I won't say whom. But there are some big BPO companies out there that have allegedly signed on to a trial test to leverage interest efficacy. But this particular, you know, Bill particularly deals with very large ones out there. And so it'll be interesting to see. It could have a future, but I think ethically, there's, there's obviously concerns about

Rick Denton: 26:37

it. That's the part that has me a little, like, again, I have to just say, with full transparency, I'm fascinated by the technology that, you know, heck, you can make this text and sound like he's from Uzbekistan, or you could make me sound like a woman from Hong Kong, or you take my voice and do something different with my accent, but

Fred Shadding: 26:57

Blew me away. But

Rick Denton: 26:58

yeah, the technology is great

Fred Shadding: 26:59

that's about it. I'm kind of like, Ooh,

Rick Denton: 27:01

yeah. And beyond the the deep fake Park, I actually hadn't thought of right, that that wasn't where my mind was going. There's just a bit of one of the things that as a globalist that I am. And I think, Fred, you share that as well, my gosh, you just took a 30th to Morocco, right? is a celebration of global cultures and being willing to embrace global cultures. And so I can understand the desire to have an auto tune for a clarity perspective, that, you know, I there are times that I talked that folks probably can't understand me. And so if I had an auto tune for my accent, clarity, that'd be one thing. But to to compress and eliminate cultural identity is where I start to get that Oogie feeling of that just doesn't feel right. And so that's, that's, it'll be interesting to see where this technology goes, and what the ethics are behind it and how it evolves through that, that ethical and technological journey.

Fred Shadding: 27:50

Yeah, I totally see where it's coming from, from a BPO service provider standpoint, you can leverage offshore agents at offshore cost and deliver a quality English, you know, voice, you know, at that rate, you know, so I get it, I understand the interest in exploring its its validity.

Rick Denton: 28:10

We'll see where it goes. It'll be intriguing, that's for sure.

Fred Shadding: 28:13

It's slick as hell I had. That's the part is. I was like, and everybody else that was with I mean, it was a several executives, I was with them a couple of large companies like we got to try this.

Rick Denton: 28:23

Yes. And there's the cool factor. You can't get away from the coolness factor. But

Fred Shadding: 28:28

I just don't know, I just don't know where,

Rick Denton: 28:30

well, let's actually close with a bit of a global aspect, right, let's go back to understanding and appreciating the globe. As I see with the clock that we're relatively close on time here. So this probably the last thing you I will have a chance to talk about. But you and I met as I mentioned the intro through Clint Cohen in South Africa and listeners, if you haven't heard his episode yet, Clinton and I get into the South African BPO industry, it's a really fantastic growth story and opportunity creation story for South Africa. So Fred, I'd actually like your perspective on that, as someone who has the global lens, both in South Africa and beyond it, why is South Africa becoming such an attractive destination for BPO business these days?

Fred Shadding: 29:11

I mean, South Africa is the offshore market that the US clientele have been waiting on, you know, for years, it's scalable. It has quality English, think we talked about it before, just think of mixed between the British and Australian kind of a cocktail there. It's a really cool quality English that we like to have on our answering machine, so to speak, and it's very pleasing to an American customer. They have strong proficiency in the BPO industry. It's not any market. They've been around 20 plus years. It's very new, I would say in terms of its growth and aggressiveness in terms of US customers going there in the last five years. A lot of it has to do with the telecommunications infrastructure right? That was left behind from the World Cup that is now you You know, very inexpensive, that was a barrier. Before it was, it was always a low arbitrage labor arbitrage market, but the cost of getting over there, negated the value now it compete head to head with India, Philippines, you know, Mexico those low cost markets and more importantly, it aligns well, with the US market business practices, overall social philosophy, the infrastructure is incredible, I had a chance to go there just before the pandemic with a group of BPO executives and clients. And that's actually where I met Clinton. And subsequently, very shortly thereafter, within a year, I play some business there, which is now double, more than double, with Clinton's organization actually, in so I see the real value of South Africa, not just as a BPO destination, but you know, really, you know, future growth in South Africa. I mean, I think it was named the number one offshore destination two years in a row now. And I've had really great experience now continue to advocate, you know, for South Africa.

Rick Denton: 31:04

Sounds sounds like it and what I like about both as you're describing the business aspect of it, and not to retread what you know, Colin's episode talked about, is there's also sort of that social growth aspect as well, providing opportunities where there weren't opportunities before. And just seeing that success story there. It makes me I've not had the chance to go there. members of my family had the opportunity I haven't, I gotta get there cleanse already promised to take me to a place that will give me the best if I get this right, the Boer Wars roll roll or some some great sausage or something that I need to go eat. And I'm already salivating thinking about this good sandwich that he's talked about. I'm looking forward to it. Well, Fred, it's been great talking with you. We are out of time, which stinks. I'd like to talk to you a little bit more about this. I mean, how can I not want to talk to the BPO whisperer even longer. So it has been delightful if folks wanted to get to know more about you more about your approach in relationships with matching brands and BPOS or even explore a match search as well how could they get in touch with you?

Fred Shadding: 32:00

I walk through the LinkedIn door every morning and kind of stay in that door most of the day. So LinkedIn would be a good first step. My email is Fred at the call center source all one word. And that is also my website www.callcentersource.com

Rick Denton: 32:17

Excellent. Well, I will get all of that in the show notes and so listeners just scroll down it's right there for you. And get to know Fred get to know more about the call center source for again, thank you so much for talking with me today. Thank you for making me jealous as many guests do about your amazing trip. I Morocco's gotta be in my very near term, have a trip coming up. It sounds absolutely delightful. Thank you for sharing your wisdom around the BPO world and closing the South was South Africa as well. It's been great. Really enjoyed it. Fred. Thanks so much.

Fred Shadding: 32:46

Thanks for having me.

Rick Denton: 32:51

Thanks for joining us this week on CX Passport. Make sure to visit our website cxpassport.com where you can hit subscribe so you'll never miss a show. While you're at it, you can check out the rest of the EX4CX website. If you're looking to get real about customer experience, EX4CX is available to help you increase revenue by starting to listen to your customers and create great experiences for every customer every time. Thanks for listening to CX Passport and be sure to tune in for our next episode. Until next time, I'm Rick Denton, and I believe the best meals are served outside and require a passport.