Rick Denton: 0:05

You're listening to CX Passport, the show about creating great customer experiences with a dash of travel talk. Each episode we’ll talk with our guests about great CX, travel...and just like the best journeys, explore new directions we never anticipated. I'm your host Rick Denton. I believe the best meals are served outside and require a passport. Let's get going. I frequently have guests on the show who surprised me with how their customer experience career started. Today's guest fits that bill. I bet you don't look to those with a chemistry degree as the typical customer experience entry path. Yet that's exactly what Karl sharees founder and president of Horizon CX earned to launch his CX career, albeit in a very nonlinear sort of way. Describing himself as a recovering corporate Guy, Karl lived and now understands what it takes for a company to get started and focusing on customer experience and creating something great for the customer. That chemistry launch. Well, it proves the point that every industry, every industry, has a customer working with complex commercial machines designed to analyze chemical compounds, Karl, help the users of those machines. You know, the customers understand how to use it and accomplish their needs essentially b2b Customer Success before we even knew what customer success was. Having come out of that corporate world, Karl knows that not every company is at step 100. And their customer journey. His company horizon CX helps small and medium sized businesses to get started to understand the basics of customer experience. That's something I think mostly X passport listeners know is sorely needed in the business world right now. I am eager to learn more, Karl, welcome to CX passport.

Karl Sharicz: 1:56

Thank you, Rick. Glad to be here. Thank you.

Rick Denton: 2:00

Let's let's have some fun here. I know you're enjoying a what I would assume is a beautiful New England afternoon. I've got my Texas afternoon going here. Let's have some fun today. Right?

Karl Sharicz: 2:09

You got that? Right, you got that right. 67 degrees here in this beautiful, warm New England afternoon. Love it.

Rick Denton: 2:16

I may end the podcast right now, because it's 94 degrees in Texas. But we're not going to end it. We're going to talk about customer experience. And we're going to have some fun with it. So I want to start with the basics. Lots of folks talk about customer experience maturity Step nine, step 50. Step 100. But so many just simply aren't there yet. What are these basics, the fundamentals of customer experience that a company needs to get started?

Karl Sharicz: 2:39

Well, that's, that's really a good place to start, Rick, and I'm going to give it to you if you will, in the context of the work that I do. Because I train fundamentals of customer experience. So let's start here. organizational leaders need to accept the fact that it's all about the customer. Yeah, and the customer is important. Now, I know that sounds cliche, right. But I think we miss that, or at least leaders tend to miss that. Because there's so deep focus, they're focused on so many other things. So for example, profit and growth, that's the direct result of customers being satisfied and being loyal to an organization, let alone them advocating for that organization. And they think, you know, I say that in the context of there's this thing called the service profit chain that was written about by James Heskett, back in 1997. As a matter of fact, that's 25 years ago.

Rick Denton: 3:40

We don't want to we don't want to talk about those timelines. Karl, come on now.

Karl Sharicz: 3:44

But I mean, it's just as relevant today, as it was back then. And I'm surprised that it takes so much convincing for leadership in organizations to kind of realize that, but whereas I'm teaching the basics of customer experience, mostly to the CX practitioner, I'm gonna kind of keep it at that level for the moment because I know we can talk about the other stuff. And realizing where that customer fits within the service profit chain, that's seven step model. And it ends with revenues and profitability, but it starts with internal service quality and hiring the right people at the right with the right skills, or training them to have the necessary. But in an organization, someone's got to lead the charge. And so you know, you historically have somebody in the marketing group that was given a responsibility. Hey, you, please, I want you to take I want to see addition to what your regular job is. Yeah, I want you to focus on customer experience, you know, someone has to lead that charge. So assume somebody's in there to do that. You have to have initially a good sense of where you are in terms of authority. Now, you mentioned maturity, you know, step, maturity, step zero all the way through step 100. But you really need to know where you are as a starting point because You'll never be able to figure out if you're making progress unless you know where your starting point is right. There was a quote that I always like to use this when he came out of Bane some years ago. And it said in a win like this 80% of business leaders believe their organization delivers a superior customer experience. Research that they'd done, and they went out and they asked the customers of these organizations to what extent they felt they were receiving this superior customer experience, it turns out that 8% of them believed they were. So they have this huge gap. So there's language, I think that some senior leaders will understand.

Rick Denton: 5:40

Yeah well, we'll see about that. Because that actually something you said there triggers a question for me, Karl, and it was when he talked about it going back to 1987, right, we're talking about things that are when you and I don't want to talk about our careers beginning but you know, back in those kinds of days, right. And when you talk about that massive disconnect between 80% saying that they're delivering great experience, and then the actual perception of that great experience is 8%. So with all this awareness with all this lip service, it's paid to customer experience. These people are saying your customer experience or customer service, everything is awful. If there's so much of this awareness, if there's so much of the sense that customer experience is important. Why are companies getting this wrong?

Karl Sharicz: 6:27

It's a really no, that's a really second good question you're asking? You know, I think it's a general lack of understanding. I mean, one of the first things we talk about in the course is what is customer experience, and it really needs to be an overall part of the company strategy. But then that means that somebody who is sitting there in, in really working on customer strategy has to have that kind of input. And I'm not sure it's being delivered there. And I think a lot of organizations are built around product, and they're built around expecting instant results. Okay, and I've said it many, many times CX is a long, it's the long haul, it's not the short cut to success. I give you an example, if I may, I because I won't mention the name of the company that I used to work, that's good, anybody that knows me. But the organization at one point in time decided Six Sigma was going to solve all of our problems, of course, see, you want to go six sigma. So what they did was they hired a company, they a consultant to come in there and just enlighten everybody was six sigma. And they are one objective with Six Sigma was to remove cost. I think just just you know, when too much attention and focus on the revenue and profitability part of that service profit chain, and it's a failing to understand the dependencies that revenues and profitability come from, you know, it comes from the customer. But it also before that it comes from the employee,

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Rick Denton: 8:26

that you talked about that cost cutting. And that's something that's hit me kind of in the heart a little bit. And a lot of us in the customer experience world talk about this a lot. And one example that gets brought up all the time. And I don't even like this term, but called deflection. And I've actually talked with people who like I refuse to use the term called deflection cuz I don't want to deflect anything, I just want to provide the best option for the customer. They want self service, great if they want to human, great, but there's so much of that. Because it's cheaper, let's go down that path of choice when it comes to customer experience. And we're hearing I'm seeing plenty of chatter about it in LinkedIn. But forget LinkedIn, just amongst our friends, our peers, they're saying that customer service is just so toxic these days, when I see a very similar question, why are companies blowing off customer service? Maybe it is just that cost thing? But what's going to happen if that's all they do is the cost focus and get rid of their approach to customer service?

Karl Sharicz: 9:23

Well, you know, it's another good question, because, you know, service is really delivered by frontline people.

Rick Denton: 9:29

Amen. Oh, my gosh, Amen

Karl Sharicz: 9:31

They are the ones there on the line. And I'll say in most cases, even in my experience, when I get to that real person, they want to do a good job. They all want to do a good job, but they may be constrained by whatever systems they have the tools that they have in order to help them be successful. Hiring the right employees to begin with, is critical and then being on boarded in the right way and trained properly to deliver that value. So that's with what's really the customer, they're the face of, you know, hearing a lot of these days about artificial intelligence. And I gotta say, you know, it's a tool it's supposed to address customers, getting customers to get their answers and issues dealt with more efficiently and quickly. But there are so many failures in regard to that, whether it's the technology itself, whether it's not the right technology, or it's a misapplied technology, but it ends up frustrating people, by the time they get to a real person, as a customer, you're ready to probably bite that person's head off. And they didn't, they didn't deserve that because it wasn't their issue. But I mean, you're dealing with a bot before you get there,

Rick Denton: 10:41

you said something that there's a lot that's woven in there that I'd want to unpack a little bit. And that is the first of all, just to start off with the idea that the frontline is where that is delivered, and that they're not equipped with the best tools. And they're not always right. We have We there are great experiences out there. You and I live in a business where we're trying to improve customer experience. So we focus on where it's broken. There's plenty of cases where it's actually working really, really well. But that So are they equipped to be able to do it, the humans themselves may want to be doing it. You talked about hiring the right people, so they have the heart for it. I want to talk a little bit about that, that the bot aspect of it, because I want to make sure that Yeah, at least for me, I'm not anti technology at all. I'll give you an example. I hate calling to make restaurant reservations. And I realized that that sentence is even shocking to some that wait, Rick, you even call just yesterday, there's a restaurant that I want to go to in Scottsdale, Arizona, we're visiting my son out in Tempe, and you can't book it online. And it's maddening we'd like to play so we're going to do it. But it that alone is making me not want to choose that company because they don't have a technology solution for a particular customer service element that I want. But there are plenty of other cases when I want to change a complex flight arrangement or when I want to deal with something and it's complex or its financial, I want to talk to a human and not wait for hours to do it. And I'm what why do you think that companies have just driven so hard towards that digital? Is it just simply cost, Karl, is that they forgot all these basics that you're hoping to bring into this? Why is it that we're just so hard charging towards that solution at the exclusion of everything else?

Karl Sharicz: 12:12

Yeah, I think it's I think it's I think it's a cost factor too. And the fact that they're being sold AI is being sold that you can do this with less people. I know. It should be it should be in theory, the easier questions to answer should be handled by but should be easily have if I want directions to a restaurant location is something that should be easily done.

Rick Denton: 12:34

Well, so Karl, will talk about this a little bit more in context of Horizon CX, but just in general, what do you think it's going to take to get leaders to care about this? And I've realized that such a, oh, woe is me. Leaders don't care. It's kind of blaming others. But a lot of that is driven by a leadership that says 80% say they're delivering great customer experience. And as contrasted with the 8% of customers who say that they actually are, what's it going to take to get him to care?

Karl Sharicz: 12:59

You would think that that quote would help.

Rick Denton: 13:02

Yeah, you would think

Karl Sharicz: 13:03

Here , the customer is giving you the answer to

Rick Denton: 13:05

the customer's giving you the middle finger.

Karl Sharicz: 13:10

You gotta have language that leadership understands. And that's dollars and cents, you know, and customer data, if it's done, right, if it's obtained correctly, we'll provide the evidence that that leadership can respond to. But CX leaders, on the other hand, have a responsibility for connecting those dots. For organizational leadership, you got to have, you got to have the forum, you got to be able to have a seat at the table, but you got to connect the dots for them. It's amazing how hard it is to get leadership with senior leadership. So you can understand something like the service profit chain, that frontline people have absolutely no problem with understanding. It's crystal clear to them, but it doesn't have leadership. So you know, I guess the bottom line is we need to get beyond this numbers aspect. In PS house will say Oh, yeah, you know, I gotta tell, I can just share this with you. I got a I got an email. Last week, in the email title was, everybody wants an NPS above 80. Right. Gosh, and I almost fell over. And of course, it grabbed my attention, and I opened the email word. And then the second line was, everybody wants the response rate above 98%. I'm like, oh, no, who's promulgating this fiction over here. And it's a vendor and it really disappointed me that it was a vendor the score part,

Rick Denton: 14:43

Karl, the that's the part and I've got my little pithy phrase that I stopped serving and score start listening to act and it is exactly that and it's irrelevant. The score, I don't, I don't care if you're 80 or negative 80. As long as you know why you're what that number is, and then do something about it. That's the important part.

Karl Sharicz: 15:00

I think you know, I'm gonna sound a bit Pollyanna shear for a moment here, but leaders need to fundamentally care about employees first and foremost, and reward them fairly and equitably. And treat them for the role that the critical role that that they serve, which is they represent the voice of the customer. Yeah. And the other part of it is, you know, it goes without saying the customer is the only reason organizations exist. And no organization is immune from failing. We've seen example, after example of that. And I used to say, except for the government, but I'm having my doubts about that these days.

Rick Denton: 15:37

Come on. Now I've done a really good job. You're about Episode 87, of keeping politics out of this. So we're gonna keep politics. You know, we are going to do that go, Karl, I'm going to totally hard write you here. I'm going to completely make a big turn. And it's inspired by our conversation earlier, something that I saw on LinkedIn, your background with a really cool guitar and violin back there. And if I didn't mention already, the hat that you're wearing right now, who comes to a podcast with a Smithereens hat, which is super cool, and I love that I love but I didn't notice this in LinkedIn, and that you write these articles in support of the Music Museum of New England showing New England's musical heritage. I didn't even know that existed. I think that's cool. Next time I'm up there, we're gonna go check that out. But it's something that had never heard of a really unique now let's assume we're gonna go deeper than Boston and Aerosmith. The two biggest names that I know of, what have you learned when you've been digging into that New England musical heritage?

Karl Sharicz: 16:33

Well, first of all, you don't have to travel to New England to enjoy the museum because it's an online only museum. Excellent. And m m o n e.org. Can everyone listening to check it out? Okay. Oh, yeah. So yeah, they do include Boston and Aerosmith, as you would expect, right. But I take particular joy in writing about other artists that you might not have. They had the same name recognition. Yep. They've contributed to and that's, you have to be from New England. You have to have contributed to it was it seemed here like Bonnie Raitt is covered in here because she lived here for a while. Van Morrison lived here for a while, and they, he was insane. But, so and I liken it to this podcast that I do call unsung CX heroes, and I like to focus on people who aren't the name people out there because, right, I just finished my 13th article that hasn't been published yet on Paula Cole. She's a singer, native of Rockport, Massachusetts, and she's can achieve considerable fame if you think of getting a Grammy Award for her song Where Have All the cowboy's gone? Oh, no, I knew the song as soon as you said her name. Yeah. And she played to perform the Pete Keith Peter Gabriel. So and I also wrote a recent article on basis, Tony Levin, you might know who he is, but he's a Massachusetts native, and he gained a lot of fame from performing keep Peter Gabriel and also the English band King Crimson. Okay, yeah, that was filmed. Yeah. So I do a lot of research on artists when I'm writing about them. And I'd say that how that relates to CX and in these terms is digging into the data to glean the insights that would make my articles more interesting, okay, help readers, the customers and their customers, right? Learn something new that they didn't already know about an artist and that's that's my differentiator, if you will, okay. Tony is a masterful musician. But he's very humble, very humble guy. It's an email conversations within himself. And I would wish that anyone in the CX profession that likes to call themselves a CX guru, or guru or CX expert, would also exhibit that kind of humility is Tony those because I think would gain the more respect

Rick Denton: 19:02

I know we're talking about at a digital and online museum, but there's plenty of traveling that I know you've done and there's plenty of traveling that we have done even just getting around New England can kind of wear you out a little bit. And just any sort of travel and it's nice to take a break from that travel and get a little relaxation in the lounge. So let's do that. Now. Let's take a break. Let's join me here in the first class lounge let's move quickly and have a little bit of fun what is a dream travel location from your past?

Karl Sharicz: 19:28

From my past, it has to be Barbados because I've been there five times okay. The Caribbean island of choice right there in Barbados, love it love the food love the people driving on the left side of the road is a joy and a half.

Rick Denton: 19:43

I would imagine it's particularly delightful to you mentioned 67 degrees but I imagine it's delightful to be in Barbados when it is the negative 12 or whatever that I remember being when I have been up there.

Karl Sharicz: 19:53

75 degrees year round.

Rick Denton: 19:54

Yeah, give me there for sure. What is a dream travel location you've not been to yet

Karl Sharicz: 20:00

been a lot of places, but the one that I have in mind right now is Iceland believe it. Okay. So it's fairly north of here, actually was when I was in the United States Air Force I was stationed in Goose Bay Labrador. So that's its fourth is I've been lots of coal, lots of snow, but lots of Northern Lights up there. So I'd love to go to Iceland to kind of relive that experience without the military experience.

Rick Denton: 20:27

Not too far of a flight for you actually to by the time you get to Boston, it's not that far to Iceland. For our flight. Yeah, I mean, think about that. You're probably closer to Iceland than you are to LA.

Karl Sharicz: 20:37

Exactly. I'm closer to London than I am to LA.

Rick Denton: 20:41

Well, that's true. I did know that that is true. What is a favorite thing to eat?

Karl Sharicz: 20:49

My favorite thing, and I can't have that every day is raw oysters. Oh, I just have a palate for raw oysters. And trust me, you can't put cocktail sauce on those things. Okay, number one. And rule number two is you cannot just swallow them. You got to chew them and savor the taste of the oyster. And it's just like red wine. There's so many different ones

Rick Denton: 21:14

that I've been surprised with Karl, actually, of all places, I know. It's not the best but Legal Seafood when I was there. And I had one of their oyster platters and I was like, I don't know what to order. She said, Oh, just bring a bunch of them. And my gosh, the difference in the flavors. This one tastes like champagne. This one has a briny flavor. This one was stunning. So red wines a great comparison. I'm a fan of oysters as well. Let's go the other way. What is the thing your parents forced you to eat but you're hated as a kid.

Karl Sharicz: 21:45

My dad always said eat your carrots that good for you. But he didn't like them. He didn't set the example. He made me and my sister eat carrots. And I couldn't stand it. But today is one of my favorite things. I learned to like, it's kind of like learning to like snow.

Rick Denton: 22:06

Yeah, Karl, you and I are probably not on the same page there. I believe that the only use for snow is if I have to skis on top of it. So you and I may have different views of snow. But we do both enjoy carrots. Now it is funny how our tastes evolved from what they were as children. What is thinking of travel? Now? What is one travel item not including your phone that you will not leave home without?

Karl Sharicz: 22:27

So that was the that was my answer. But it can't be. No, I'm, well, if I'm traveling by air, there's two things that you need to bring with me. Can I say two things? You said one thing but it's got to be true. I need a book. Because that's where I get all my major reading done. So if I'm on a flight to Barbados, or LA or Iceland, I'll have a book with me. But another thing I bring is I bring headphones, not because I want to listen to anything in particular. But what I want to do is prevent myself from being the recipient of the talker that's going to sit next to me

Rick Denton: 23:12

Karl, I have done that on flights, even if I'm not listening to that I will just put the headphones on. And that is the protective barriers. So I'm absolutely with you there. Now in the intro, I mentioned your experience in the b2b world, right the the chemistry the complex machinery in the b2b world beyond that, but you've been in both b2b and b2c? What are some of the differences you've seen in customer experience, specifically between those worlds?

Karl Sharicz: 23:37

But you know, the interesting thing is, I see a lot of the same things actually. All right, well, it isn't all that much different. I mean, in b2b, it does get more complex because the client has different faces. There's not one person usually, you're you've got an end user, you've got an economic buyer, you've got an influencer, you've got procurement. And any number of people can get involved in in the in the in the acquisition or sale, you know, as opposed to be to see where the end user is typically the client face. That's the one client face I see that. But however, the concepts that we talked about the basics, they're similar, if not identical, so everything I talked about regarding basics of CX really equally applies. In my training courses. I have students from both b2b and b2c and they learn to apply the same concepts within their respective organizations and they're working side by side so they sometimes they're working in teams, so you know, things like customer journey mapping, that's not common to b2b or b2c. It's, it's relevant to both so many things that overlay that I don't think there isn't that much difference to when it come right down to it when it comes to the fundamental tools that you need to be successful at that I don't think there's the nuances or in the bait, the way the biz runs.

Rick Denton: 25:01

I like that. And Karl That. Actually, I wrote a blog. Gosh, I think it may have been like two years ago at this point, I've lost track of time where it was I wrote the b2b ESB, in the b2b is just a collection of humans. So it's just, they're still humans, they still operate like humans, it's still customers, it's still and how that translates to customer experience tends to be the same. You mentioned those training courses. And I want to close out with this, Carl, because we started our conversation with a lot of conversation about what are companies getting wrong, right? Why don't they focus on this? Why don't they care? But there's got to be as there's these triggers, and what is it that you commonly see where a company says, Okay, that's it, I've got to do my customer experience, my customer service, my customer insert word here better? What are those issues, those moments that cause a company to say, I need to bring Karl in?

Karl Sharicz: 25:52

Well, me specifically that my case, I think, it's curiosity about CX, it's hearing about, it's wanting to learn more. And, and hopefully, they find me in their search effort. I mean, that's another you know, hurdle and stuff like that, but, and in realize that I'm the guy they want to talk to, when they're at that maturity level zero, when we talk about zero means I'm, you know, I'm kind of barely aware of it, I'm not aware of it, but I'm going from zero to one, those are ideal for me, you know, you don't have to be a CX savvy to have a conversation with me, I'm not going to use a lot of big words and jargon on you. And I kind of specialize that way, in my approach to organizations, you know, to get the lay of the land around CX and, and individuals, whether they're with out an organization or within an organization that are new to the discipline, you know, there's so much to learn about the fundamentals. And, you know, use of music analogy here, I turned on lessons, a number of years ago, and I thought, Well, I'm gonna walk in there with my drum kit and the drum instructors, no, no, no, all you need is a pair of sticks and a snare drum. Because you really need to learn the fundamentals. And we started with the paradise metals and stuff like that, and the rolls and all this stuff and the beats, and it's all about stick control. And that's where I think a lot of organizations, once they understand that, then they can go, they can get all the rest of the maturity steps that they want to, you know, because that's the only way you're going to become competent in any drummer will tell you that, I learned that when I was having that did an article on Tony Williams as another drummer, he said, you really want you to do when you start out is you start seeing what other people are doing, watch what other people are doing and try to do that. And I think in CX, you can do some of that you can see what other folks are doing and try to do some of that. But there becomes a point where you make it your own you realize what it is for your business in CX or for your technique is from or to craft your own way and also because there is not one right right way. And that's probably part of the problem here is there's tons of opinions out there and CX world there's endless opinions even and I sometimes get annoyed by opinions. In but I think experimentation and you know finding your own in that is real, but it takes time and patience needs to prevail.

Rick Denton: 28:27

And Karl, I think what I like is that is let's close with that. There's a ton of opinions out there. But what you really were starting to what you were not starting you were talking about this, the fundamentals, the basics, get that right get and I didn't know any of the drum stuff that you're talking about. But just get that right you're not going to go out there and suddenly be the drummer for rush right you are going to you're going to be the kid on the little just a snare drum rat a tat tat. And starting with those basics is so important. It's so smart and probably where a lot of companies are so bloomin wrong. How can people get in touch with you to learn more Karl?

Karl Sharicz: 29:02

Well, first of all, my business is called Horizon CX horiz on. So when I say my email address is Karl at Horizon CX. Invariably somebody wants to put Verizon in? Oh, no, but I'm not Verizon mine horizon. So it's think of the Sun as the sun, right? Okay. So you can email me at Karl@horizoncx.com. Or you can go to Horizoncx.com a website. I'm on LinkedIn,

Rick Denton: 29:32

Karl, I will get all of that into the show notes. So listeners, you can just scroll down and click the links directly from there and you'll be able to get connected and find a way to learn more about Karl and horizon CX Carl again. Thank you so much. It's great talking the fundamentals of CX with you. Great learning more about New England music and I am gonna go hit that museum online and learn a little bit more about that wonderful conversation. Hey, Karl, thanks so much for being on the show.

Karl Sharicz: 29:57

Thank you, Rick was was a pleasure. Thank you.

Rick Denton: 30:03

Thanks for joining us this week on CX Passport. Make sure to visit our website cxpassport.com where you can hit subscribe so you'll never miss a show. While you're at it, you can check out the rest of the EX4CX website. If you're looking to get real about customer experience, EX4CX is available to help you increase revenue by starting to listen to your customers and create great experiences for every customer every time. Thanks for listening to CX Passport and be sure to tune in for our next episode. Until next time, I'm Rick Denton, and I believe the best meals are served outside and require a passport.