Rick Denton: 0:05

You're listening to CX Passport, the show about creating great customer experiences with a dash of travel talk. Each episode we’ll talk with our guests about great CX, travel...and just like the best journeys, explore new directions we never anticipated. I'm your host Rick Denton. I believe the best meals are served outside and require a passport. Let's get going. What does word of mouth look like when it's a town of fewer than 500 people? Sure, it might be a smaller count than a massive city but think how foundational that might be to someone's view on the value of voice of friends and family when making decisions. Today's guest Craig Stoss comes to us with a just that perspective. While he's no longer in that small town as he's moved on to Waterloo, Canada since his teenage years, his thoughts on customer experience are shaped from that origin. Craig currently is the senior operations manager at PartnerHero, having led a team distributed all across the globe. You know, that speaks volumes to this host heart. Craig continues to grow into opportunities and roles with an increasing focus on delivery of great customer experience, including consulting other companies to help them deliver great CX. I want to learn more about how Craig does that later in the show. Guest and define me or I find them often due to a shared love of travel. Craig's got that statement built right into his LinkedIn profile. I can't wait to hear his responses when he steps into the first class lounge. Today is going to be a fun ride. Craig, welcome to CX Passport!

Craig Stoss: 1:42

Thanks for having me, Rick, what a great, what a great intro. And I hope I can live up to it.

Rick Denton: 1:47

I know you will have a high degree of confidence here. Let's start. Let's start with that that word of mouth experience. I enjoyed hearing that when we were talking in our conversation before we got the show going. You mentioned that way back in the 90s. The Canadian government thought, yeah, this internet thing might be kind of interesting, and crafted a plan to spread the word listeners. I know this places me solidly in the old category. But I really do I remember a time when I first heard of this internet thing back when I was at Duke University in the mid 90s. And I know it's hard to imagine it now. But there really was a time when folks just weren't quite aware or convinced of the value of this thing. So Craig, tell me about that early experience.

Craig Stoss: 2:31

Yeah, I think word of mouth is a great intro to it. Right. So even my involvement in this program was through word of mouth. So yeah, the Canadian government had recognized there's this thing called the internet. I don't remember the exact year but late 90s sometime. And they recognized that if they didn't put any investment or funding into it, that they would stay in the big cities like the Toronto's and the Ottawa and the Vancouver's. And so they they solicited local government agencies, in my case, a library to hire students to come in during the summer and teach summer computer camps to children courses to senior citizens about not only what the internet is as far as functionality and how it works, but also things like what you could do with it, like everything from getting a sports score, to to download a government form. Now, all of that was a lot harder back then. I mean, Google didn't exist at that days, but it is, it was part of the idea to start bringing them or spreading the word across Canada. And, and as I said, I became the student through word of mouth, I was a patron of this library, it was a walkable distance from my house. The librarian knew me she knew that I was a little bit technical, you know, and by that I had used a Commodore 64 and had at least once or twice been online, you know, which again, was Yeah, and and, and so, you know, I applied to the job as you needed to with a resume and everything. I had done a lot of work in the community, I worked at the local store bagging groceries. And so I had, you know, people knew who I was as a young, young, young adult. And then I ultimately got the role at the library. And I think that the experience for me really became about the different perspectives that people had, when it comes comes to stuff, you know, I don't think anyone today thinks about how their toaster works. Right? You know, you put your toast and we're, you know, how does it turn one versus six done, you know, as far as doneness of the terms. No one thinks about that. They just, it just does it and back then. And they internet similar now, right, the internet is, you know, no one really thinks about the mechanisms of the internet because it just happens so fast. But back in the 90s, as I'm sure you remember, you know, it didn't happen that fast. Web pages kind of came in that chunk view. You know, when you sat there and went major T was especially when you loaded some like a complicated you know, sports website was One example of that, where there's tons of data coming in from sports teams. And so teaching those kinds of basic things, and the kids, I remember very specifically like taking like a picture, and ripping it up into small shreds and saying, This is how the internet does it, they had one shred at a time and, and how their perspective was different than, you know, the senior citizens who commit came in and had never even held a mouse, you know, these days, maybe had touched a mouse and some course inside their schools, but I, you know, senior citizens who just had never even looked at a computer and didn't understand what an icon was, and didn't, you know, and then talk about how I had them asked me, How long is my email going to take to get to my family in Germany? You know, and it was instantaneous, was, it was just mind boggling them. So, you know, it that really formulated, you know, this, again, to go back to the word of the mouth, you know, concept, just hearing people with these different perspectives and different ages, different demographics, different backgrounds, really, kind of built a foundation for how I started to look at CX and specifically customers and technology being combined.

Rick Denton: 6:12

Yeah. And I think I do want to explore that a little later in the concept of customer support, and really focusing in that area as well. But I want to tease out a little more of the voice of the customer piece, because I'm thinking back to that time, listeners, I know it's an audio only podcast, but I'm sitting there with my head, my hands laughing. Off mic. When I think about the email, you know, how long does it take to get to Germany? And but I wonder, is it when adopting a new experience? So we talk about in customer experience, word of mouth is so important. We got NPS scores that are about you know, have you told friends and family and that sort of thing. But when it's something particularly new, how important do you think that word of mouth is? To Getting someone to try a new experience to try a new brand and new product? Did you did you seek thinking back to that time? Do you feel like yeah, that the Canadian government idea of having sort of advocates pushing this forward was really the way to gain that adoption? And does that play forward now in new products?

Craig Stoss: 7:14

You know, it probably really depends on what you're, you're pitching. Right? I think it's funny, I had this conversation literally. Yesterday, we were talking about tick tock and I don't know anything about tick tock. I've never been on tick tock. You know, you see sometimes a tweet that has a link to a tick tock but I don't know anything about it that when I take my son to the bus stop, there's there's there's a group of teenage girls there that talk about oh, I you know, I saw this on tick tock or I made this tick. I don't know anything about that. And so I've heard a lot about it. I've heard a lot of word of mouth about tick tock, but that's not nothing has convinced me that there's a value. And maybe there isn't, maybe I'm just missing it. And I feel like that's that's how, you know, the problem with word of mouth. Right? It's, it's, if I feel there's value there. And if you can explain that value to me, then then I'm likely to, to at least try something. You know, this whole theme of travel we talked about as part of your podcast, right? I mean, how often is someone recommending you a restaurant because you know, they know your flavor, the flavor profiles, like or, and so that helps you go there. And I think that's true. With all this new stuff, is if there's a new technology, I'm a process and tools guy, if there's a new Pro, a new tool out there that helps facilitate some interesting CX process, you know, then you could tell me why there's value to it. I'm all at least check it out. Right, I'll have that half an hour conversation. And you know, side note there that's why one of my pet peeves is when product websites don't describe their value and they just use buzzwords like oh improve customer experience and your you know, NPs will be through the roof and it's like okay, but what are you doing, right? How are you doing that? Like Tom in you know, I mean, every CX product claims to do that, and some probably do but how do they do it? So I think it's uh, you know, to me it just is all about the value side of it. I need to understand from that word of mouth what the value is

Rick Denton: 9:11

that actually you will you can even hear it right? I'm almost stuttering and stammering over myself because that is kind of word of mouth is considered the end all be all. But you're right. It all comes down to the customer's perspective on that that's great that the you enjoy that or there's some new thing out there. But what's the value in it to me? What's What's particularly important about that, to me, it's all about that customer's perspective. What that customer experiences all depends on their perspective.

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Rick Denton: 10:03

And I want to take that now with you into the BPO space and specifically in the in the Customer Support area. You know, that is such an epicenter of what a customer experience, it's such a key part of shaping a customer's perspective. And so as you think about that in the BPO world, or just overall, what is what is the right way to set up that customer support function?

Craig Stoss: 10:27

Yeah, I actually your is completely irrelevant, right? I think it's a very similar answer, right? If you're starting from scratch, you know, if you're, if you're a young company, you just, you know, you have to offer some sort of support for whatever the product is or services you offer. Yeah, the probably the right way to set it up is just get some contact information out there, an email, a phone number, or a Twitter account, or whatever, whatever. It'll depend highly on your industry, but just just get something out there for customers to contact you. There is probably an element of voice of customer, we've already mentioned that where you should ask your customers what they want from, you know, I used to have a boss who he said the phrase, his his phrase was, you would never email the fire department to tell it, tell them your house was on fire? You know, you would want to call someone and have that assurance immediately that someone was driving a firetruck to your house. Yes. And and so, you know, what about the cases that, you know, is your product that critical? You know, I've worked in industries that, you know, security industries, for example, that that is that critical? Where we're not all products probably fit into that category. And maybe some customers think you fit into that category, which we could have that debate. That's right.

Rick Denton: 11:40

My house is always on fire. Exactly. You know,

Craig Stoss: 11:45

you know, so So it's one of those things where, you know, you start with just getting contact information, maybe that next step is to have that voice of customer feedback of okay, what do you actually need from us. And then really, from there, my, my view is actually, this, the term I've heard recently, a lot of is called Voice of service, which is one step kind of, in my opinion, the way I describe it is one step above Voice of Customer voice, a customer is absolutely a vital piece of voice of service, the voice of service includes all the signals across across the your customer base, so that could be tickets or voice of your service, where widgets that your customers get stuck on, you know, when they're using your product or voice of service, all the signals and patterns and trends and everything that the customers don't explicitly tell you through, say, a survey, which is more like the voice of customer, the things that just they're, they're telling you by the nature of them contacting you, you know, if you if you notice a trend, for example, within the first month, customers have a certain type of problem. And, you know, they they're just calling you, they're new to the product, they think they need to learn, well, maybe that's that's voice of service, he's saying your service isn't up to up to the right par. And you might need to go to your onboarding team and say, change this process, build this training better, so that they don't have this problem. It's not something that your customers may necessarily have to explicitly tell you. It's something you recognize through all the signals coming from across all your tools. And that, to me, is the next step stage. So you kind of start with your basics, do what your customers do explicitly tell you and then start doing what they what you can infer from the signals that they're sending.

Rick Denton: 13:23

That voice of service, I actually, either I'm completely disconnected, which is unfortunate, or I just haven't stumbled into that phrase yet. But it makes a lot of sense to me it it fits, I tend to talk about a total voice, the customer approach, and where you know, stop, survey and score, start, listen and act. Too many people think Voice of the Customer means survey, that's not the case of total voice, the customer program is less hitting across all those customer listening posts. And then what do you do with it? This isn't listener, sorry, you've heard it before this is this will not be Rick soapbox again. But I liked the idea of you know, if voice of the customer is just not heard correctly, in the ears of people across industry, Voice of service, meaning that entire suite of how do you listen to a customer, not just in what they say not just what they provide you actively, but how they behave, how they act, what are they what are their interactions, the website, I find that to be particularly brilliant. There's something intriguing there.

Craig Stoss: 14:18

It's so powerful. I use this example in a previous conversation I had where there was a restaurant I went to when I lived when I lived in England for work for a period of time and there was a restaurant I went to not enough frequently it was a little bit higher and it was kind of the place you go for an anniversary or a special birthday. And and then I moved back to Canada and about three years after I moved home. I wanted to take my then girlfriend over and show her where I lived in England and meet my friends. And we I said listen, let's go to this. It was near her birthday and I said let's go to this restaurant. I used to love this restaurant. I haven't been in three years I'd love to go and we walk in this restaurant and you know I booked the reservation. We the maitre d is taking to our table, and he says, as we're walking, Mr. Santos, I wanted to inform you as we're getting to the table that the wine that you typically order is no longer on our wine list. But we've done the we've done the favor of naming three wines that are similar to what you used to get. And hopefully one of those is to you're like, that man, that's voice of service. Right? They they knew what I ordered. They have the receipts. Yeah. And then they apply that to my new reservation a three years later. Yeah, that's could be maybe a bit creepy in certain areas of the world, but depends on how you treat it. Exactly. And so I would never have called them and say, Please remember by wine order, right. I mean, that's, that's, that would be voice of customer say, I demand the service. I demand that that that service review, okay, but it was really cool that they, they use the data, they collect it. And maybe that's the key to all this right, I think it's becoming easier because in our world of SAS, you know, mobile apps, IoT devices, you have the data, the data by virtue of your business model exists in your cloud somewhere. And we're just not using that data to look at those trends and figure out those patterns that could could be your these this intrinsic request that your customers are making of you.

Rick Denton: 16:17

Boy, you are preaching to the choir there, that concept of listen, and act is so important, and actually do something with the information that has been provided to you. I love that story. But did your girlfriend think that you were like an absolute Rockstar when he walked in? And they did that?

Craig Stoss: 16:32

I have to say, I don't know how I did tell her I was like, No, this is not what I would have expected. This was this was again over and beyond.

Rick Denton: 16:40

You set that up? Didn't

Craig Stoss: 16:41

I sliped him a 50 pound note

Rick Denton: 16:46

That's awesome. Well, thinking about that evolution, right? You know, if that's where we want to see, voice, the customer voice, the service voice, just companies go. And we were alluding to the BPO industry. And I know that there's an evolution that you're hoping to be a part of this idea of this new breed of BPOS. Want to talk about what how is the industry evolved? And where are you hoping to see it go?

Craig Stoss: 17:10

Yeah, and I mean, this is this is the key right is, you know, we all know that the metrics and you know, throw up some random percentage 80% of customers say that's, you know, customers, or SRA clients say that CX is most important in business decision of the business making decisions. And, you know, all these numbers that you see in every survey that Gartner or Forbes or whoever put out, right? And forgetting about the percentage, it just makes sense to me. Right? It's one of those things that if someone's gonna treat you better, you're more likely to be more loyal to them. Right? And, and so I think that's what BPOS are evolving in BPO is kind of where a, a butts and seats model, how many people do you need? What time do they need to work? We'll find them all you need them tomorrow, oh, well, we have a list. And we'll just go and pick the top 50 people on the list, whatever, it was very much a there was very little, you know, develop professional development didn't really exist in many cases. But when we start stop thinking about support as a cost center, that and start thinking about what caused support as a value center, well, then all of a sudden, this whole idea that oh, we'll own BPOS only sole purpose was to save us money is kind of turned on its head, because maybe Saving money is nice, and maybe it's still possible with a BPO. But that might not be the driver anymore. Maybe you don't have the HR talent to scale quickly. Maybe you're super seasonal. And you know, there's laws in your your country that don't let you just hire and fire people or temp contracts are risky, and you know, people you know, burn out or leave or whatever it might be BPOS are experienced with that and can help you provide those get those hires in and provide the value of those hires in a more efficient way. And so the evolution of seeing is into this model of we're going to a BPO because we don't have the expertise here, or we can't afford the expertise here. Or we don't necessarily want to be in the business of having the expertise here. We want the BPO to come in and be you know, fractional Zendesk administration, fractional director support strategic strategic planning, you know, some companies just don't have a data analytics team. Well, can the BPO provide that to me? Can you do a QBR with me and say, Here's where you need to go from support? Yeah, and what does that mean? And does that mean hiring more? Does it mean putting a tool in and that's kind of what my role is at partner hero is to act as a, you know, somewhat of a strategic consultant to some of our, to our clients, to help them see what support can be for their customers. I just see this trend, you know, all of our competitors these days, I think are following this trend of let's focus on the value of support that I feel is that the evolution of BPOS is and that's that's why I was really excited to join, join partner hero now and be part of that evolution.

Rick Denton: 19:53

That's the That's you talked about how contact centers have been viewed as cost centers. There's a I They often will talk about know, if you're doing it right, they're actually customer insights centers. And so take what you've described, and you can then take your BPO partner and it's not just a cost play, but actually it's a customer insights play on steroids, that you and pick whatever it is the value that the BPO provides to the brand that they're particularly seeking out. But that you have that opportunity in the evolution of what a BPO can be into that partner that enables you to deliver greater customer experience because they have better insights that they can show you the data points that you didn't see all of those sorts of things. One of the things that I do like about talking to people from BPOS, and many of my global contacts have come through the BPO world and I love the global perspective that comes from that BPO space, the listeners know that I focus on that world a ton. So with your global travels, what have you observed around just the global differences let's start there but that's kind of generic, but really differences around customer experience.

Craig Stoss: 21:00

You know one thing that I love to say is that consumer being a consumer is just one of the one of the very few traits that every one of the people on this planet it has experiences you know like it's a you know, you know from your child going to the candy store with a with a you know 10 cents in the pocket to get to get you know treat you know to us buying houses and cars as adults right I mean we all it doesn't matter where what part of the world in your even to some degree at what age you are, you are consuming and suddenly you are a customer and and yet we experienced that element of being a customer so differently you know, and you know, the most drastic memories I have as far as differences were things like being in Japan and having the such the politeness and when you know being heavy cash society and having to count the money out into your palm you know, it'd be very purposeful of here is the change I'm giving you and hit you in the eye and you know, you walk into a some restaurants there and they everyone says hello to you as you walk in and it's very customer focused, I find it in many places in Japan that I visited. And then you go to a place like India, and they use people to solve some of these problems like when I've checked into hotels in Bangalore I used to work a lot in you know, there'd be like three or four people there to help you check in one person to help you in the door one person to help with your bags one person to help on the elevator. And there's functions of cost and economies of scale because you have such a population there's there's there's all sorts of reasons for that. But it adds an element of you just you kind of get used to this overly attentive service that I don't think you get in most places in North America

Rick Denton: 22:53

with all of those experiences with all those countries you mentioned travel can get to you travel can start to wear you down and you and I before we started we hit the record button we were talking about upcoming trips now those are trips to fun places but it is still can wear you down a bit and so I'd like to invite you to join me here in the first class lounge let's take a little break just like we might on a trip let's move quickly here and have a little bit of fun what is a dream travel location from your past?

Craig Stoss: 23:23

Hong Kong Kong yeah I love I love Hong Kong I've been several times and it's just a perfect combination of all the wonderful foods and cultures of Asia but with that little bit of a the English European tinge to it because the because of their history and I love I fell in love with Hong Kong day one and I would go back anytime

Rick Denton: 23:43

I would do the same it is when I am asked that question it hits my top it I never can answer for one but it's always right up there in the top and not only the the combination of the East and the West that you're describing. But the A note surprised me the first time that I went there the juxtaposition between industrial glass and steel modernity with absolute tranquility beauty of nature all in one place. It is It boggles the mind if you've not been there so I you have a Hong Kong fan as well correct what is a dream travel location you've not been to yet

Craig Stoss: 24:22

um, I haven't done a lot of travel into Southeast Asia so you know places like Singapore Bali anywhere in that kind of South Vietnam that I don't necessarily be able to name one place because I want to do them all but Yeah, somewhere in Southeast Asia for sure.

Rick Denton: 24:36

Well, I won't limit you even if you said you're allowed to go to other places. What is this is where Hong Kong comes in strong but don't limit yourself there. What is a favorite thing to eat?

Craig Stoss: 24:47

I'm going to cheat a bit and I'm going to say all I love spices I love I love different flavor combinations. So I'm gonna treat and say the various curries you get from all over the world whether it be Indian curry, English curry, Thai curries, Vietnamese curries, and Any of those any of those things that combine sweet and savory and different spice combinations I love I love just, I yeah, that's how I cook when I cook at home. I love just trying different new flavors out. So

Rick Denton: 25:12

that is fantastic. Now I'm gonna go the other way. What is the thing your parents forced you to eat which hated as a kid?

Craig Stoss: 25:18

See, I was never a picky eater. I I suppose I'd never was a big fan of some of those more fake meats like the Bologna, Bologna and okay, not fake. But you know, you know what I mean? Like, kind of the derived meats as opposed to turkey or chicken? Yeah, processed meat. So I'll say I'll say that I'll give me chicken breast or turkey breast or roast beef any day.

Rick Denton: 25:41

All right. What is one travel item not including your phone, that you will not leave home without?

Craig Stoss: 25:50

Um, this will be weird. I will say throat lozenges, because I am a social person. And I talk a lot as this podcast probably is experienced. And I'll find that my voice gets hoarse all the time. And so I always travel with the plethora of throat lozenges in my bag.

Rick Denton: 26:17

Craig, speaking about that talking, I just took a look at the clock. And we are like, shockingly, past time over time. But that's a good thing. Right? I'd rather enjoy a conversation. And that's the beat also have a podcast. It's not like, you know, oh, no, we've got to hit the commercial break note, we got continue. Continue on as much as we want. But I'm thinking kind of, let's close out talking about the basics. Right? There's there's shiny tools out there new journey mapping new methodologies, that the basics of customer service have fallen short, you're helping companies try to do better with their customer experiences or customer service? And I want to combine that thought of, you know, how are you helping them focus on the basics of customer service? But I want to also ask you, how do you make sure that they focus on action? Because process and tools are great, but actions? What's matter? So how do you get to that basics? How do you get to the basics of action, and that those actions drive business results?

Craig Stoss: 27:10

You know, I think there's this idea. We're so used to rev ops and development ops, and sales ops, and these these teams that do nothing but you know, build out tools and systems to try to make things better meatal, drive revenue, drive, better sales, sales, initiatives, sales, training, and support Ops is probably very new to this, you see customer experience ops, success ops, but support operations is fairly new. And I think that there's this transfer, transferable idea that, Oh, support Ops is going to cost a ton of money, because Reb Ops is cost money and sales ops cost money, we gotta, you know, we got to get the tools, we got to get the shiny objects that you refer to. And I don't think that's true. So I would say it, you know, to get the right attention where you want, get a get maybe one dedicated person, and it could be an existing lead a senior member of your team, you know, maybe it's a small raise or promotion or title, but you know, you don't have to spend a lot of money here. And just say, for the next quarter, just look at stuff, shadow people. You know, look at some of the data that I mentioned earlier, like on just understand a few things. I have a friend who was a director of CX, and he always talks to me about wasted clicks, like imagine if you could go through on your top 10 tickets and save five clicks per case per person, you know, per issue type. And how many times time that would save how much frustration that would save from your reps and how you know that all I had to do this process again, like, just look for those types of things. And just get down to the making your team more efficient. And you don't need a tool to do this. You could do it in Google Sheets, you could do it with literally sitting over someone's shoulder or looking over zoom. And and just really get back to what are we here to do. We're here to provide, you know, efficient service, high quality CX, where are we not doing that? And I feel like that's, that's step one. And then and then after that quarter, you document things, you make note of things, and you hold yourself accountable to it, you know, if you can find a place to reduce clicks, well, how do you do that? Is that a macro? Is that is that a trigger in Zendesk? Is that a? Is that a new tool? Maybe it is, I don't know. But anything that could help you just reduce those clicks? Or, you know, again, you look at your one thing that I love about knowledge management is is not so much what people is working, but what's not working, what search terms are not working, because now you know, go and edit the SEO of your knowledge base, add a few keywords, rewrite an article. If a search term isn't working, it's not working on masks, and clearly your customers need that knowledge. So either the knowledge hasn't doesn't exist or it's not tagged correctly, or it's not presented correctly. Those are free. I mean, not free, but it. Yeah, those are super cheap, inexpensive ways to focus on the basics of getting your support, right. So that would be my starting point, you know,

Rick Denton: 30:10

I'm going to distill your starting point. And this is grossly simplifying. But you know what I heard, listen and act. So even the things that we advise ourselves to do when it comes to our customers, you're saying it's exactly that same thing. You don't need a big fancy tool. Just listen, go go out there and spend time and see where the inefficiencies are. See where the opportunity to improve experiences, see where the opportunity is to improve service, both internally, or as you're describing even externally as you go through the knowledge base, and then do something about it. What a shock, right? There's so much. And I feel like there's a lot of companies that are willing to listen, or at least willing to say that they are willing to listen, it's the act part that falls short, Craig, it's been a lot of fun talking with you, if somebody wanted to get to know you a little better get to connection with you. Or to learn more about partner hero, how would they go about doing that?

Craig Stoss: 30:57

So I my biggest platform is Twitter. I'm stossinsupport all one word on Twitter. And obviously I'm LinkedIn Craig Stoss. And, and then PartnerHero was partner hero.com. And you can get hold of me through the support driven group CX accelerator, and several of those those types of forums around the internet as well. So I would love to chat more about these topics.

Rick Denton: 31:21

I'll get all of that in the show notes. And folks can just scroll down there and be able to connect with Craig or learn more about partner Craig, thank you so much for talking with me. I've come away with a new term voice of service. I've come away with a lot of insights and things that actually caused me to look down and the synapses break a little bit, including wondering, and there was a time that somebody asked how long that email will take to get to Germany, so I will never forget that story. Correct. Thank you for taking the time to be with me on CX passport today. I enjoyed it.

Craig Stoss: 31:49

Yeah, I did too. Thank you so much for having me.

Rick Denton: 31:55

Thanks for joining us this week on CX Passport. Make sure to visit our website cxpassport.com where you can hit subscribe so you'll never miss a show. While you're at it, you can check out the rest of the EX4CX website. If you're looking to get real about customer experience, EX4CX is available to help you increase revenue by starting to listen to your customers and create great experiences for every customer every time. Thanks for listening to CX Passport and be sure to tune in for our next episode. Until next time, I'm Rick Denton, and I believe the best meals are served outside and require a passport.