Evan Klein: 0:00

If you're not going to act, right, don't ask it all.

Rick Denton: 0:08

You're listening to CX Passport, the show about creating great customer experiences with a dash of travel talk. Each episode we’ll talk with our guests about great CX, travel...and just like the best journeys, explore new directions we never anticipated. I'm your host Rick Denton. I believe the best meals are served outside and require a passport. Let's get going. As an entrepreneur myself, I enjoy getting to talk with other company founders. It's been a challenging, rewarding, frustrating and fun journey to get my company EX4CX Execution for Customer Experience to where it is today. I'm still learning a ton, and I love it. So imagine my delight in getting to talk with Evan Klein, the founder and president of Satrix Solutions, a company he founded over 14 years ago focused on maximizing customer satisfaction, retention. And let's key on this word for a second profitability for businesses around the world. With Evan identifying as an enthusiastic champion for voice of the customer driven change, you know, I'm going to want to more learn and share his voice the customer stories today. Those of us in the customer experience world know this is the root of differentiation in the customers mind, inspiring customer decisions that bring increased loyalty and lifetime revenue to companies that get it right. Evan talks to us today from Scottsdale Arizona, an area well known to travelers golfers and outdoor enthusiast. I've had the pleasure of getting to know it a lot better as my son is a student nearby Arizona State. Love the area. So we might get into a little bit of Scottsdale talk today as well. Evan, welcome to CX Passport

Evan Klein: 1:57

Thanks, Rick, great to be here. Glad you get to visit Scottsdale every once in a while I have to agree with you except for the summer months, which we're entering into now. It's a wonderful place to live.

Rick Denton: 2:08

So moving for my son was in the middle of August as it is for many people. So this was three years ago, and it was 117 that day. So yes, I have a a sense of the Arizona summers, but I don't live in it. I admire those of you that do. And I do hope that we do get a little bit of Scottsdale talk here in a little bit. But I did mention there in the intro. And I love that you had said this, that you are a champion of this enthusiastic voice of the customer driven change. So let's center on that change. What are some of the more interesting, or even shocking stories of a business that had this epiphany about the customer that they didn't realize before they actually, you know, focused on voice of the customer?

Evan Klein: 2:50

Yeah, and I liked the way you phrase the question, although shocking, probably doesn't happen as much as surprising or interesting, right? The reason I say that is because, you know, we work with leadership teams who get it, that's probably why they hire us in the first place. Right? They understand the importance of it. So they're, you know, good leadership teams are rarely shocked by any of the insights or feedback that we're providing. However, they are surprised, and they learn a lot that helps drive their business forward. And I think, you know, the way to think about that is both on the, on the micro and the macro level, on the micro level, on a customer by customer account level, there's always surprises, right, almost every time feel to survey or gather feedback in some form or another, there's a customer that they thought was in good standing, sometimes they even use as a reference that they learn is not very happy, and potentially even at risk for churn. So that happens. And that's, you know, one of the sort of low hanging fruits of the work that we do, where we pass that along to our clients, they close the loop, and they try to work hard to address the issue with that customer. So they save the revenue associated with that account. Now, on a macro level, you know that that's where we're providing insights and recommendations that sometimes do surprise our clients. And so a couple of examples there, they might learn about the importance of a missing feature or function in a software product, right, which maybe they weren't entirely aware of, or they didn't think was as big a deal as their customers feel that it is. So they have to accelerate that feature enhancement on the roadmap. Another example is, and this is a common one, unfortunately, where support maybe doesn't offer the channels that the customer is looking for. It doesn't have the hours that the customers need, right, because they're a global company, or you know, maybe the support techs are not as knowledgeable and sometimes our clients are surprised how frustrating that can be to the customer. And so they have to make investments in customer support to alleviate some of those pain points. So those are just a couple of examples where we're bringing those insights forward. Yeah.

Rick Denton: 5:03

And Evan, you may have seen me smile or even chuckle about a company being surprised how frustrated a customer can be when a support function isn't in the way the customer wants it, whether a customer actually wants it to be more digital, or the customer wants, where's my human? Why am I mashing zero? As much as I are screaming agent into the phone? Why am I not getting to talk to one? That's, that surprises me that they were surprised. It shows though, the importance of listening the voice of the customer, because I think we as companies, those of us that have worked at companies, or those of us that help support companies can find a company getting insulated in their own skin in their own building and their own teams. And fail, they think well, because I think it therefore the customer, which might think it and so getting out there and really listening to the voice of the customer is how they can actually learn what the customer cares about what they want, what they desire.

Evan Klein: 5:56

Yeah, absolutely. We're I mean, we, we refer to it as you know, sort of keeping your finger on the pulse, right, or, you know, just level setting with your customers. I mean, things change, right? people's expectations change over time. So, in that example, support may have been fine, you know, six or 12 months ago, but maybe they had, you know, some change in the way that their needs or than competitive dynamic might have affected their perception. So that's why it's it is important to have these systematic programs in place. So you're, you're you're gathering that feedback on a regular cadence.

Rick Denton: 6:29

Ooh, and systematic. Absolutely. The process element, we won't go too deep into that that's been a topic in some of my other episodes. But absolutely having a discipline that where it's not just this one off a true a total Voice of the Customer program, like you're describing is one that has that as a discipline. Yeah, I'm thinking about that. Now, you mentioned that you tend to work with companies that have already they already get it, right. So they're already on board with it. But I imagine that there's companies that have been through an evolution to come to where they're working with you. And I'm more curious, what are some of those trigger moments that you've seen where a company kind of comes to that epiphany and realizes Wait, all this talk about customers actually important, and we're not doing it? Well, I'm ready to get real about voice of the customer.

Evan Klein: 7:08

Yeah, there's a number of triggers, as you can imagine, a couple of prominent ones is, you know, the competitive dynamic, as I alluded to just a moment ago, right? When your competitors start poaching your customers, or you're hearing, you know, word in social media, for example, that your competitors have better service experience than you do, then, you know, that usually opens some eyes and forces a company to get more rigorous or, you know, around collecting that feedback. Another example, certainly that I know, we're all familiar with, and probably every company experiences, right, when you lose a significant account. Right? That was a surprise situation. And that accounts gone. And you realize that if you had stayed closer to that account in a number of different forms, right, not just through customer feedback, voice customer programs, but the relationships that you have, and so forth, that maybe you could have prevented that from happening. So losing a big customer is certainly something that motivates companies to say, Okay, we really need to get serious about Voc. And then, you know, what's also interesting is we work with a lot of companies that are venture or private equity backed. And so a lot of the times that when a venture capital investor or private equity firm, wants to invest in a company, they do due diligence, right, and that due diligence often includes interviewing some top accounts. And so they're hearing things that maybe the company doesn't even know, you know, perceptions that exist or sentiment that exists that the venture capital investors getting their hands on. So that sometimes is the impetus for a company to say, okay, you know, let's start investing here because now the folks who are on our board, obviously, this is important, so we better think it's important.

Your CX Passport Captain: 8:50

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Rick Denton: 9:17

Well, we talked about wanting the leadership to be bought into customer and customer experience. Yeah, when the board is telling you that this major account is absolutely livid with you and about to walk, yeah, suddenly you start to pivot and change. And wouldn't it be nicer to find that out before private equity or VC show up and, uh, and start interviewing your clients? Well, well, you know, okay, so it's one thing to listen to a customer, right? And that'd be great. And we see examples of listening and I talked about stop serving and school, restart, listen and act right Change only comes through action. Converting the action is a completely different matter than just listening to them. So I'm curious about what what do you see out there that the more successful companies are doing And when it comes to creating action around their customer experience, and if you'll indulge me, I got a second part to that question. And that is, how does that then create business profitability? Because listening is great action is great. But so what if it doesn't create tangible business results? How do you see successful companies walking through that entire path?

Evan Klein: 10:20

Yeah, so important as you identified, I mean, if you're not going to act, right, don't ask at all. We'll just stop right there. Well, and you know, it's interesting, because so many companies, obviously, are fielding surveys now. And we all know that we take surveys, and sometimes we don't ever hear back, or we don't ever see any improvements. So that's first and foremost, as a business that's truly committed to voice a customer acting is a differentiator, in and of itself, to many, many companies that really just pay lip service to voice a customer. So. So that's, it's vital. And the companies that we work with, you know, generally have processes in place to act on, you know, feedback to have process improvement, enhancements sort of make their way through the organization. You know, they usually, the leadership team has points of view, of course, the Board may have a perspective, they're talking to their largest accounts, I mean, I think every company is usually fielding insights and recommendations from their large customers. So they're putting those enhancements those ideas into place, through a mechanism through a framework. And what we're saying is like, you don't have to create a new framework or a new process, just use your existing now feed this, this, these insights through from this channel, into your decision making endeavors. Right. So it doesn't necessarily have to create a whole new way of doing things. It's just something that, of course, we believe, should take precedence and off, you know, be a priority, because this is a true voice of the customer. So let's put, you know, let's put this in the front of the pack, when thinking about what kind of enhancements or investments or new processes we want to enact for the benefit of our customers. The other thing that we see really good companies do is they have their employees are given, they're empowered to make changes or to address customer frustrations. And this is very true, of course, you know, there's a lot of stories in b2c, right, where you have the consumer brand, you know, like the Ritz Carlton, where if you complain to someone at the Ritz Carlton, they have the authority in, you know, up to a certain amount of money, which I think is a pretty significant amount to address the issue and make you happy. And this is also something that can be true in a b2b company. So that's something that our clients are doing. They're, they're empowering their employees. And I think one other good example, a number of our clients have voice of customer championship teams, right? They're cross functional teams, of folks who are not at the leadership level, maybe a notch or two below, but that are passionate about voice, a customer, they want to get in the mix, they want to improve things. And so they're put in an A group that meets maybe monthly, that leverages all the voice of customer feedback, and is tasked with really driving this through, right. And if they have investments that need to be made, they go to the leadership team and ask for budget, but you know, they're socializing, they're recommending changes or training of employees. And so that's something that we see that works really well. Because at the senior executive level, they're so busy. And so sometimes it's tough for them to think about all of the components that that can really be used in leverage to enhance the customer experience. So that championship team plays an important role, that

Rick Denton: 13:53

there's a thread through your answer there that I really appreciate. And you called it out, I just want to amplify it. And that is, this doesn't have to be something new. Now, if a company doesn't have a discipline process improvement process, it's quite a different word, right? But a way that they go about it with a normal mechanism that they're looking, how can we make this company better in whatever regard? If they don't have that? Well, then that's a different issue. But there is that element of if it's already there, don't have a separate customer experience process from your process improvement process. Instead, weave the two worlds together, don't have a separate customer experience process, from your product, from your sales from whatever it is, we've the two worlds together. So that one informs and brings that improvement across all of those areas. That idea of when I've talked to others before, it's been about, you know, let's get a process. Let's make sure that there is a process I like the approach of Well, you probably already have one. Let's just integrate right into it and move forward from there. And so we can actually start seeing those tangible results even faster.

Evan Klein: 14:53

Yeah, it's really well said directly. You know, the interesting thing is sometimes we go to a prospect and we lay out what our approaches and what our role and responsibility is and what their responsibility is. And of course, one of the biggest components of our clients responsibilities acting on the feedback, right driving that, that ship positive change. And you know, sometimes we get the reaction like this feels like a lot, it feels like yet another, you know, a task or responsibility that we're going to have. And my counter to that is well, are you not making enhancements? Currently? Are you not driving through change? And today, I'm not again, I'm not asking you to create something new, I'm just asking you to now implement the change based on a large percentage of your customers. So usually, that gets their thinking aligned around what this really means. It's not something that you have to build necessarily an entirely new process around.

Rick Denton: 15:45

Brilliant approach. I like that. Evan, I can't I do want to pivot a bit here, right. So business talk is great. But let's be honest, I'd rather talk about travel and just hear about all the wonderful things of travel. But when I was prepping for this show, I realized that when I'm talking to guests outside of the US, man, I almost go straight to a question ask him tell me about your area. What would a tourist might want to know? But I've had plenty of guests from the US on this show. And I don't tend to ask that question. Why wouldn't I want to know what the local secret delight is of a particular town. So today, I'm going to start doing that I'm going to ask my US guest Evan about Scottsdale. So selfishly, I would want to learn more about Scottsdale as I still have a little bit more time in the Arizona world coming up here the next few years. And I know that listeners around the globe will want to know that as well. So tell me about some of those faves in Scottsdale, what are some of those secret haunts that a local knows that wishes you wouldn't tell us here on a larger podcast?

Evan Klein: 16:43

You know, I don't know how secret some of these are. And, you know, obviously, everyone's a little bit different and things that appeal to them. I've been here 18 years. So and I still haven't seen all that Arizona has to offer. But I will say some of the things that I recommend strongly to anyone who's coming to visit, everyone knows about the Grand Canyon. What people are not as familiar with are the slot canyons, also referred to as the antelope canyons. Now, you might have seen these, in fact, many people have in pictures or in commercials and TV, but don't realize or recognize what they are. And it's really amazing site where you actually go underground, where the water over millions of years has sort of carved out these canyons, and the rocks are beautiful, smooth, Red Rock. So that's something I think is a unique experience. And I recommend to anybody coming to Arizona, and then the other one that's maybe a little bit more playful, if you will, depending on your age, you might might resonate or not, but they do tubing down the Salt River. And so you start up you know, in a few miles of tubing in the sun, and usually there's, you know, cocktails or alcohol of your choice involved. But that's for a lot of people as long as you wear a lot of SPF with you, those of you watching can see my skin, gotta be careful on here in Arizona.

Rick Denton: 18:11

Oh, Evan, man, those are two great tips for Scottsdale. Now off air. I'm hoping to even extract a few extras out of you that we won't share with the listeners because I know there's a few even more haunts. But those two sounds spectacular. And I do hope to be able to enjoy both of them. Now travel between where I live the Dallas area and Phoenix Scottsdale not too significant. But there can be some longer trips and I'm sure you've had some longer trips as well. And it's nice to take a little break the lounge can be a very, very nice place of respite. So that's what we're going to do here. Join me here in the first class lounge. We will have a little bit of fun here and move quickly. What is the dream travel location from your past?

Evan Klein: 18:49

So Ireland and Scotland, I would say are definitely two unless we actually were fortunate to hike the Scottish Highlands. So check that box.

Rick Denton: 18:58

Oh, cool. Well, that sounds neat. Tell me a little bit about that. As a fellow hiker. I would like to know more about that.

Evan Klein: 19:05

Well, you know, what's interesting about Scotland and hiking is that it's different than in the US. They don't have clearly marked paths. So you can go you can go out there and just meander around and easily get lost. We actually because we're not you know that high level, we found the one clearly marked path that you know, was counted as hiking in the Scottish Highlands. So I think it was about an eight mile hike, but we knew how to get back which was important.

Rick Denton: 19:32

That would be really, really important. I gotta get back to my lack of Boolean so I don't want to be lost out there. Looking forward. What is a dream travel location you've not been to yet.

Evan Klein: 19:41

So I think you know, it's on our bucket list as I'm sure it is many to see the northern lights right the Aurora Borealis so we're thinking Norway, Iceland, something like that for the next trip.

Rick Denton: 19:55

With that'd be spectacular. I'm by the way, I'm sensing something and listeners may as well you You have described both a past favorite and a future favorite that takes you into the cold. This feels like it's the anti Arizona trip that is becoming your favorite to get you something out of that heat. I can appreciate that as well. You know, one of the great things about travel is eating. So I'm curious, what is a favorite thing of yours to eat?

Evan Klein: 20:19

You know, it's funny, I may get some strongly worded emails about this because I really eating it's not that important to me. Like, how often do you hear that? I don't really. I don't really plan my meals, like some of my friends do. But I will say good sushi is something I really enjoy.

Rick Denton: 20:34

That's true. I'll tell you about my favorite place in Phoenix after we're off the show and see if it matches your your favor as well. Although I'm not sure I can identify with you when you talk about eating not being that important as it is incredibly special to me, but we will keep going here. I wonder. Maybe it's influenced by this? What is the thing your parents forced you to eat, but you're hated as a kid?

Evan Klein: 20:54

Maybe it is actually I should talk to my therapist about that. meatloaf, probably meatloaf, that's marvelous that I think I'm scarred for life.

Rick Denton: 21:04

It's definitely come up before I can understand that I like me low but I can understand why some might. Let's close out with one travel question here. So thinking about travel, and not including your phone, not including your passport, what is one travel item you will not leave home without?

Evan Klein: 21:22

Oh, I'm not even sure I should admit this. We we actually just got back from our longest trip of my professional career in Italy. And I brought my pillow

Rick Denton: 21:37

man, Evan, absolutely. Sleep is so important. I don't travel with my pillow, though. There's been plenty of hotels, both domestically and abroad that I wish that I had. So you are a very wise man and a wise travel choice that you had there. And I mentioned listen and act earlier. Now I've put a third element on it when I'm talking to clients, it's listening, act, and engage. So using a voice of the customer program to inspire coach and celebrate employees is to me a key part of that successful Voice of the Customer program. How have you seen voice the customer applied to employee engagement?

Evan Klein: 22:16

Well, in many respects, is what you just mentioned. Right? I think one thing that's so vital in building that culture of customer centricity getting all employees, you know, essentially rowing in that same direction. Storytelling, making sure you're conveying you're sharing what success looks like in the form of stories, that's usually how It's received well, among employees, obviously calling out and, you know, offering kudos to the folks who are doing really well. And by the way, it's important not just to think about the frontline, when you're doing that, because there are folks all over the organization who are contributing to a positive customer experience. And sometimes they don't touch the customer at all. So sharing those stories about exceptional customer experiences, you know, when a customer may be expanded their engagement served as a reference, you know, wrote something great on a review site, how you got from maybe a difficult situation to a very successful outcome. Those are methods that really seemed to work well, to get the employees on board and understand the importance. And and also metrics, obviously, right, so oriented around a KPI that people can understand. And they know how they can move the needle, no matter what role they're in.

Rick Denton: 23:33

You said...We talk a lot about on the show about making sure that we engage the frontline and be connected the frontline because it's often overlooked. You're actually right, though, when it comes to celebrating customer story. Often that is a very frontline focus. And it shouldn't be this is not me saying, hey, stop doing that. But rather, it's an and statement, that idea of, hey, don't forget that the customer celebration, not just telling a non customer facing person about a great frontline story. But rather, how did that non customer facing role actually deliver a great customer experience, albeit indirectly, is an incredibly important point. And something that I don't know that we think about all the time. So I'm glad that you brought that in into there. I'd like to stay in this area. And I know that when we talk about customer experience, it's this phrase or you know, customer centric, or we were customer first but they don't really have the customer at the center of things. So when you've seen this work really well, when you've seen companies do and harness this energy around the customer experience into a real movement inside of a company, this this strong culture shift. What are some of the success stories that you've seen there?

Evan Klein: 24:46

Well, quite a few. I mean, I think it's probably cliche at this point to say but you have to say it anyway. Right? It has to start at the top. Right, and the executives have to really live it, breathe it, not just pay lip service to it. So that's first and foremost, you know, I think the other thing for me and you know, our clients, you have to start at home. And what I mean by that is when, when the frontline employees or all employees are, are, you know, told essentially, that part of their success involves the customer success, but then they look inward at the organization that they work in. And people are not responsive to them, their colleagues aren't helping, you know, things like that things break down between one department and another, you can't get someone on the phone when you need to address a customer issue that, you know, I think just blows the whole thing up, right? Because if people feel like, okay, you're, you're telling me that I need to act this way, externally with our external customers, but our internal customers, our colleagues, are not behaving in that same manner. You know, that caused me to call into question how committed you are to this. So our clients who are who are doing this really well, you know, start by, you know, inviting feedback from their employees about the other departments that they work with, or other colleagues where there may be hurdles or obstacles so that they can help alleviate those internal frustrations, and therefore make people feel better about the organization that they work in. And we all know, I think happy employees tend to provide better service to the customer.

Rick Denton: 26:24

Yeah, I like, as you were saying that I'm sitting here thinking, do we need another set of acronyms? Do we need an ICX internal customer experience and then an E, CX. And then I was like, Okay, we got enough acronyms. No, but the the principle of, we talk a lot about employee experience is how just like you ended their employee experiences, how you can create that great customer experience. I think there's a, there's a corollary to that. And that is the internal customer experience. And you could call it employee experience. But really, it's this internal customer experience, how people interact with each other inside the company, drive that great external customer experience. I, I want to ask you one more question, I want to go just a little bit into something here. And I want to talk about the state of voice the customer today. And I've run into this, where I'm even questioning whether I should continue to use the phrase voice of the customer, because so many people equate that phrase voice the customer with survey. But that's so limiting the customers, especially with a declining return rate. And so surveys and response rate, there's more ways to listen to a customer. So I'm curious, how are you advising companies on the best ways to listen to the customer's voice? Whatever definition of voice that is?

Evan Klein: 27:41

Yeah, and I do think a strong voice of customer program includes a number of different channels or mechanisms to solicit that feedback. I, I might take some contention with your statement about survey response rates going down. I mean, certainly, we're challenged in new ways that we are today than we were 10 years ago, right with the, you know, the influx of surveys, and so many people being asked them and then also spam filters. So I agree, it is more challenging, I will say, we worked very hard at getting our clients a representative, statistically valid, reliable, trustworthy sample, so they can make decisions with confidence. But I think to your point, it definitely is more of a challenge now than it used to be. And for that reason, we do recommend, I think this is the basis of your question that they don't rely exclusively on surveys, there are a lot of ways to collect feedback. Certainly we love customer advisory boards, as a means to collect that direct voice of customer, right having all members of the leadership team in a room with 12 or 15 of your best customers. And I don't mean best, necessarily that they're the happiest, but best and they're the most engaged, they have a real strong point of view. And you can collect a lot of very valuable strategic insight from a customer advisory board program. So that's something I think, you know, of course, one on one, there's always value, and there always will be value in that direct communication. So our clients who are really good are having quarterly business reviews or joint success plans where they're very strategic conversations on a regular basis with the decision makers and other people in the account so that they can have that dialogue and really plan for maximizing value. And then you know, there are user groups and communities and ways of scraping or soliciting feedback from social media, or from even email right or transcripts from you know, sales calls and CSM interactions. So there are a lot of things that are on the table as opportunities to listen to the customer.

Rick Denton: 29:51

I liked that and I'm glad you called me out on the survey because even my phrasing as I was saying it I was like one of the things I don't want people to think is that I'm anti A survey survey, I think there's still great value in them, I just think that we're not seeing is it to your point, it can't be the only value input and the fact that you're advising folks, hey, keep keep an open mind into what that means. And I think some of it can be incumbent on us as customer experience leaders to help shape the conversation, realize that voice of the customer means that and more and help us drive towards that. Absolutely. Evan, this has been a delight. If folks wanted to know a little bit more about you and your approach to customer experience, or more about satrix solutions and the offerings that they have, what's the best place for people to turn?

Evan Klein: 30:37

Certainly our website satrixsolutions.com. And what I will say there is it's our website is oriented heavily around us providing thought leadership and guidance to folks, so you don't necessarily need to engage us. We have a lot and I think for you know, boutique consulting firm, we contribute to the conversation quite a bit. So there's a lot of best practices and ebooks and, and articles about different aspects of voice, customer and employee engagement. And then I think LinkedIn certainly is another way to track what we do and keep tabs on all that we're offering up and things that we're thinking about.

Rick Denton: 31:15

Awesome. Well, I'm gonna get that down there in the show notes. So again, listeners don't have to stop don't have to get a pin to scroll down, click the link and you'll be taken right there to learn more, and get some of those insights that Cedric Solutions has to offer. Evan, it has been a delight talking with you today. I chuckle about our travel conversations of Scottsdale conversations, but I really enjoy the insights that you're providing to me and the listeners around voice the customer how to do it, right how to how to actually deliver tangible business results, how we can listen to the customer across a wide spectrum. And what that really looks like in a successful program enjoyed the day, Evan, thank you for being on CX Passport.

Evan Klein: 31:51

Yeah, thank you so much for having me. Rick really enjoyed it as well.

Rick Denton: 32:00

Thanks for joining us this week on CX Passport. If you liked today’s episode I have 3 quick next steps for you Click subscribe on the CX Passport youtube channel or your favorite podcast app Next leave a comment below the video or a review in your favorite podcast app so others can find and and enjoy CX Passport too Then, head over to cxpassport.com website for show notes and resources that can help you create tangible business results by delivering great customer experience. Until next time, I’m Rick Denton and I believe the best meals are served outside and require a passport.