Rob Dwyer: 0:00

Virtual agents AI that sounds and talks just like us. That will come. The question is for consumers. How will we react to that?

Rick Denton: 0:20

You're listening to CX Passport, the show about creating great customer experiences with a dash of travel talk. Each episode we’ll talk with our guests about great CX, travel...and just like the best journeys, explore new directions we never anticipated. I'm your host Rick Denton. I believe the best meals are served outside and require a passport. Let's get going. When you're using the hashtag, Star Wars lessons for your LinkedIn posts, you're gonna stand out. Now couple that with actual solid customer experience lessons in those Star Wars posts, and you're offering some intriguing wisdom nuggets. Okay, so that's written content, not satisfied with one medium. Today's guest also hosts a respected Customer Experience podcast next in queue, and finds a specific unique pop culture reference and hook for each guest. The last two at the time of this writing was a twisted sisters on and a grand musical number for South Park. Folks, it puts my little cheeky friends style titles to shame. I love seeing what this guest puts together for his podcast intros so viewers and listeners. I've always said that I wanted interesting conversations with interesting people. And I am confident that today's chat with Rob Dwyer VP, customer engagement at Happitu will fit that bill. Rob self declared sweetspot as the context center, and I've really enjoyed getting those insights in front of the CX passport trailer as that's where I've often said, that's the goldmine of customer understanding at the contact center, it is often overworked. It is often underutilized. And it is absolutely the epicenter of rich, rich customer insight. Plenty of change exists in that context in a world amplified even further in 2023. With the heavy focus on AI solutions. It'll be interesting to hear Rob's perspective on that. And travelers, you won't have to go to a galaxy far, far away as Rob comes to us from Kansas, just a few states up the road from me here in Texas. So put away your lightsaber, channel the force and join me in hyperspace, Rob, welcome to CX passport.

Rob Dwyer: 2:36

Thanks, Rick. You know, it's, it's been one of my dreams to appear on your fantastic shows.

Rick Denton: 2:44

Oh, well, thank you. Oh, that warms my heart right off the start, Rob, I really, really appreciate that. And for listeners, I would recommend that at least take a peek over at the YouTube channel so that you can see Rob's brilliant background here and understand why I mentioned so many Star Wars references as it is clearly special and dear to him. Rob, I do want to start with something simple, though. Why the contact center? I know it's near and dear and sweet and important to me as well. But why is that? Why is the contact center your sweet spot?

Rob Dwyer: 3:12

Yeah, I feel like it is where the rubber meets the road. You can have all of the products and services and great marketing and all of that. But when a customer has a challenge or a problem or a question, it comes into the contact center. And that's where you really find out how customers are experiencing your product or service. Right. And that's why I love it.

Rick Denton: 3:41

Yeah, man, I want to ask you so, so many other questions about that. So why is it okay? I don't think you and I can answer the question I was about to ask. I'll ask it differently. How is it that we've come to a world where we you and I and many others think that the contact center is so vitally important, and we recognize that is where experience is CO created. And yet it gets diminished? I mentioned it being offered overworked and under utilized. Why why is that the case when that's this rich source of customer insights?

Rob Dwyer: 4:14

Yeah, I think for a lot of companies like a lot of other different functions, it has been traditionally viewed as a cost center. And so unless you are in a contact center that is also driving sales are driving upsell or cross sell or whatever the case may be. When you think about the service side of it customer service or customer support. Companies off often view that in a lens of this is a cost. This impacts the bottom line in a negative way. And so they try to minimize that impact. And that comes with a lot of consequences. It could come from the pay Eight, it could be related to outsourcing offshoring, it could just not get the attention that it deserves. Because we're focused on these other aspects of the business. There are just lots of different variables. But you put them all together. And often the contact center is not viewed as the rich data source that it can be.

Rick Denton: 5:30

And you know what, that's not the fault of the contact center, as I'm sitting here thinking about that, as you're saying that Aladdin and we know that right. But it just the thought comes to the top of that. It's not the context centers fault, it's the company's fault for not tapping into that. And there's this cycle that hopefully folks like you folks like me will start to break when we realize that the context Center has such that rich Insight has is that epicenter and would be valuable to those that maybe some of the other letters, CFO, other type labels that may not think of it in that way. But rather, think of it as that cost center, open their eyes to how one could really actually not just get insights, but then do something with it, get business results out of it. And I know, a lot of the way folks are seeing that start to change. I alluded it alluded to it in the intro than in 2023, the two letters, right, the big letters that are part of every conversation that I feel like I'm a part of Heck, I just read in a newsletter today, the Newton neuron, it's a great AI newsletter. And they were talking about being at a conference and even the housekeeping staff was talking to him about AI. So everyone is talking about a AI. But I like to start contrarian for a second. You'd mentioned this to me before that, you know, since everyone and I use that with air quotes says you must move to AI now, who shouldn't? Who should not be running towards technology and AI right now?

Rob Dwyer: 6:50

This is a great question. I think you can utilize technology in just about any business sense, right? No matter what kind of work that you do, for the most part, technology can be a part of that. And then maybe AI can be a part of that. The question is, do you have well thought out goals that you want to achieve? And do you know how a particular AI enabled tool will help you get there? That's the thing that I think there are a lot of questions about as AI means a lot of different things. It is not one thing, right? Or even among generative AI, there are lots of different applications for that. It's not all just chat GPT. I think that's the one that we all hear all the time. But that's not the only type of generative AI. And so just understanding what kind of AI Am I using? And what goals is it going to allow me to accomplish? And what are the risks associated with that. And those risks could include, for instance, legal risk, and so doing a very thorough analysis on understanding why I want to do it, what success is going to look like, if you haven't done those things that just stop.

Your CX Passport Captain: 8:20

This is your captain speaking. I want to thank you for listening to CX Passport today. We’ve now reached our cruising altitude so I’ll turn that seatbelt sign off. <ding> While you’re getting comfortable, hit that Follow or Subscribe button in your favorite podcast app so you never miss an episode. I’d love it if you’d tell a friend about CX Passport and leave a review so that others can discover the show as well. Now, sit back and enjoy the rest of the episode.

Rick Denton: 8:48

And, Rob, I like how you put it that way. Because I think when I asked it, I thought you might have said that you know this industry or this role or this type of context center, that sort of thing might not be I like what you're saying is it still goes back to there's probably a use for technology for every business, every company has some use for AI, that would be a generative, whether it be language models, whatever the technology is, because you're right, even I am absolutely guilty of saying AI in such a generic sort of way when it really means all these independent little slivers that have different usages. Instead saying of an industry that shouldn't do it. Rather, it's if you haven't done your work to get ready for it. And one of the areas of that frustrates me when I am talking to potential clients or even just in LinkedIn conversations, is how it's become such a tool, especially in the context center for how we could cut costs. And while cost cutting can be a great outcome of this. If that's the initial objective, well then guess what you are likely going to diminish the experience and you aren't going to get the outcome that you'd hoped for. So let's, let's let's take what you just said about if you are prepared and if or if you're preparing, you gotta listener out there if you are out there that is saying Okay, I'm interested in this. If I want to be prepared if I want to be in a sense that I've got my goal set, and there's a ton of opportunity with generative AI, where's it going? And how should if I'm running a context center? How should I utilize it?

Rob Dwyer: 10:17

Yeah, well, where is it going? I think is still an open question. That there? I don't think anyway, that was the

Rick Denton: 10:25

main question, I buried the lead. That's what I want to ask you. Where is it going? Come on, Rob.

Rob Dwyer: 10:30

I think predicting the future is always dangerous. A certain extent. And if I had known when I was a kid, and I heard I hooked up my first modem to my Commodore 128, and chatted with my neighbor, what that would eventually turn into if I could predict the future, then I would be probably on an island in the Bahamas somewhere not talking to you just,

Rick Denton: 11:01

you wouldn't care a lick about tech or generative AI, you would just care about where that next Margarita came from.

Rob Dwyer: 11:07

Right. So I'm not in the business of predicting the future. But what I will say is, it is coming in many different forms to contact centers, and is absolutely coming and in many cases is already there, I think the best today, the best use case is for supporting those agents who are supporting your customers. And so that may mean that you're doing some analysis on performance, so that you can better coach and develop your agents so that they really interact with your customers more effectively, more efficiently. It could be that you're giving them some real time guidance to help support them. There are lots of different things that you can be doing in the contact center. I do think, for better or for worse, that virtual agents, AI, that sounds and talks just like you are well, okay, it's not going to talk just like URI, but it probably program to talk just like us. That will come the effectiveness is yet to be seen. But it will come. And the question is for consumers. How will we react to that? Will we be accepting of it? Will we not be accepting of it? And will we sit through a phone conversation? And I do mean conversation with a bot that sounds like a human? I think at some point, to some extent, we probably will. Yeah, I'm

Rick Denton: 12:58

I'm slightly wondering if you're influenced by that love of Star Wars, right? Where we do see a future where that is something that is not surprising and very common, right? I mean, I guess you could say that see, Threepio is a phenomenal AI bot, right? Just a totally different format. I don't want to offend any Star Wars people. I love this show. I don't know if I just said something that I shouldn't have. But he kind of reminds me of that. That is interesting, though. When I think of how I naturally react when I'm presented with a chatbot. Even before I've had my first interaction with it, I'm pissed off. Because I've been exposed to so many bad experiences with a bot, that it doesn't matter how good it actually ends up being I'm already sort of pissed off. And I'm wondering baggage. The one with bot baggage, I think he just gave us the title of the episode, Rob? Well, I've never even thought of that. But I do. And so as we take that forward, when you talk about that being a benefit of being something that you see it going that direction, let's talk about from today to that future, what needs to happen to make that be something that would be appealing to the customer. That would be some of the customer would not wrestler clench up like I do about a bot, but instead welcome and eagerly interact with?

Rob Dwyer: 14:19

Well, I think you're going to need two things, right? It's going to be time and it's going to be good experiences replicated over and over. Every bad experience kind of sets us back we have a tendency to remember those bad experiences more than than the Okay, that was a satisfactory experience. And so we as consumers, as people are going to need time and we're going to need a lot of experiences that reinforce that, hey, maybe this isn't so bad. Because you're right. It's not just you. A lot of us are going to cringe the first time we recognize, I'm not talking to another person, I'm talking to a machine. And I have had bad experiences, I've got that bad baggage. And so I'm automatically biased and inclined not to even want to continue to move forward and right, that challenge that that has to be overcome.

Rick Denton: 15:26

I think, you know, something else that's coming to mind, Rob, that you're saying there is so much of that as it's has to be positive experience. And there's so many things that are well beyond the scope of this podcast that are okay, so how do we technologically create that? How do we create a dataset upon which that virtual assistant rests to where that virtual assistant can have a natural conversation? How do they make it sound natural, all those things could be an expanded episodes will be on my skill set. I think another element is transparency. And I try to think back to the original era of bots. And I don't know, I don't even know if I can really remember that. It felt like a lot of companies were trying to sneak it past it first. Yeah, it so you're think you're chatting with a human or something like that. And there was that sneaking it past? I think being honest with the customer up front of, hey, this is our virtual assistant or someone who come up with a better name. And you're interacting with them conversationally, and let's just have a conversation then being honest about it. Heck, the novelty factor that alone might get people over that bought baggage that I'm describing, if we're being honest about it upfront, and not trying to hide behind Oh, I'm doing a cost cutting measure, and hoping that the customer doesn't notice, as opposed to here's a better experience. And I want the customer to notice and embrace this because I think it's awesome. And new customer. I want it to be awesome, too.

Rob Dwyer: 16:42

Yeah, I absolutely agree with that. And I do think we are being in some ways. I don't want to say trained, it almost sounds nefarious, but we are using voice enabled assistants today many shirts, right? Right, Siri, Alexa, Google Assistant those things. So we're starting to interact more and more with machines by voice. And I think that will help the transition, there's still going to be situations where it's not appropriate, we should have human support. And there are going to be people who just never want to talk to a machine. And I get it.

Rick Denton: 17:29

But then we'll provide a vehicle

Rob Dwyer: 17:33

that we ended up with

Rick Denton: 17:34

your Rob Absolutely right, if I'm calling into a health insurance company, and I'm struggling with the fact that they have not adequately paid for the cancer treatment that I felt like they needed to be paid paying for. There's there's it's unlikely that I see in my lifetime, and maybe my children and grandchildren's lifetimes, a scenario where a bot is going to manage that with the empathy that I expected demand as a human could be wrong. So I but there will be scenarios where I would be happy to have that conversation. Let's go. Let's actually take that one step further. So that's exactly what I just said there kind of lent itself towards hype. And we're hearing a ton of hype that, oh, my gosh, technology will do everything for us by the Final Four in 2024. It'll be amazing at that point. Listeners, Rob is a Kansas fan. I'm a Duke fan. And so the Final Four is very special to both of us. But how are you rob separating that hype versus reality of the debate? How are you able to listen to Okay, now this sounds like something that's actually real, this vendor is truly using an actual upgrade in AI, as opposed to just a nifty or chat bot? And then how do you use that to make sure you're getting to a better experience?

Rob Dwyer: 18:43

Yeah, that is really a challenge. For a couple of reasons, right? There are all kinds of different options vendors out there, who are in the pace, the pace of development is moving so quickly, that it makes it really difficult to go, you know, is that is that even possible? Is that real? What I would say is whether something is possible and whether or not it can actually be done today with with the technology that maybe you're about to purchase for your company. Those are two very different things. And so I would just say you need to be one you need to have a good relationship with whatever vendor you're gonna go with, so that if things are not what you thought they were that you can have that legitimate conversation, and the other thing that I would be wary of, particularly today at the pace that things are changing is I'm going to be wary of entering into a long term contract with a company that hasn't proven itself to me. If you've proven yourself to me and I know that you're delivering value, then Okay, now we can we can talk about that. But the pace of change and development is moving at such a breakneck speed today that if I were a company I would want to keep my options open. And I would want my partners whatever technology they're providing to really prove their worth to me

Rick Denton: 20:26

Rob, that was a valuable nugget. I like that idea of Yeah, I'm not gonna get into a long term relationship unless I trust you. It's sort of the the marriage relationship of technology vendor and company. I want to change the pace on you a little bit here. And you and I were talking before we hit record how you recently had an i 35 trip from Kansas down to a city just outside of San Antonio and I don't even drive to San Antonio, I fly from Dallas. And while the rest stops are nice, actually the Texas rest stops are very nice. They may not be first class lounge worthy. So I want to invite you today into a real first class lounge let's take a break. Let's enjoy this here. We are going to move quickly here and hopefully have a little bit of fun what is a dream travel location from your past?

Rob Dwyer: 21:10

From my past and I think it came up already the Bahamas. I really I've only been once but let me tell you that was an amazing vacation.

Rick Denton: 21:20

Boy to have a so I guess I mentioned Marguerite I guess that'd be a little more of a rum drink that she'd be seeking in your island if you'd gotten that crystal ball back with your Commodore 128

Rob Dwyer: 21:30

Yeah, strawberry daiquiris.

Rick Denton: 21:32

That's where it's yes. Tasty one my dad would always make lime daiquiris at home now. I should do an aside here Commodore 128 You were fancy. I only knew the Commodore 64 All right, you were you were doubling up the power

Rob Dwyer: 21:45

was a little bit deeper of a machine. And yeah, you know, that was what I grew up with.

Rick Denton: 21:55

And there is now two thirds of the CX passport audience that just went Commodore what what is this thing they're talking about? Go google it and you'll see the origins Oh my goodness. Well, what is a dream travel vacation you've not been to yet.

Rob Dwyer: 22:11

Italy has always been on my bucket list and I've been to Europe but I have not been to Italy yet.

Rick Denton: 22:18

You will eat well. You will your eyes will just be amazed with the beauty and you will drink well if that is a choice of yours. And even if it is not you will eat like a king. Oh, that's an awesome place to have in that dream travel location. Speaking of eating, well actually what is a favorite thing of yours to eat?

Rob Dwyer: 22:34

So I do love all kinds of Italian food but if I really have to just say like this is this is my last meal just give me a good rare steak some nicely grilled asparagus, maybe some some mashed potatoes or a grilled potato of some sort and nice bottle of Cabernet and I'm gonna be a happy man.

Rick Denton: 22:56

Alright, so next time you do this Kansas to San Antonio, you will be passing by well you probably do 35 w but take the 35 V branch come over let's go have a steak dinner here in the North Texas area and then I'll send you on your way. Nice when I liked that favorite meal. Let's go the other way. What is something growing up? You were forced to eat? But you hate it as a kid

Rob Dwyer: 23:21

saying that Popeye eats it does not make me rich any better. I tried and tried. My mom dried my grandmother even tried but canned spinach is awful.

Rick Denton: 23:37

That amazing how many how many parents attempted to use Popeye as a way or your muscles are going to pop out? No it still tastes like crap. I'm not going to eat it now. I love spinach now but my goodness I hated it too. That's awesome.

Rob Dwyer: 23:51

fresh spinach delicious and slimy

Rick Denton: 23:55

oh that's awesome no go for you. Well let's go back and let's close out the lounge back to travel and what is one travel item not including your phone not including your passport that you will not leave home without

Rob Dwyer: 24:10

I mean when you've got a mane like this you've got to bring the beard conditioner that's shout out to Scotch Porter. That's my brand of choice I've got to make sure and then condition the mane

Rick Denton: 24:30

Robert has a well conditioned mane and I can see it and viewers I know you can see it as well it looks fantastic. Now I don't think you have the condition main back in this stage of life and this question may catch you off guard a bit but I'm curious I've got a son who is a rough he's done soccer roughing as his kind of since he was in middle school and now he does it as a college aged kid. I know that you've been an NCAA baseball umpire for 18 plus years now. My son shared why old stories with me, I guarantee you've had some wild stories. So along with some fun storytelling, how has that experience of being an umpire influenced your approach to customer experience today?

Rob Dwyer: 25:11

Well, I think there's a couple things. The first and foremost, though, the one thing that I learned to hone in that role was communication. It is so valuable. And being able to communicate effectively with people to understand where they're coming from, allows you to focus on moving toward a resolution. But the one thing that I never expected to learn as I was an umpire, and this is true, especially as you as you move up into high school and college is that those coaches who are getting maybe upset at a particular call, it's their job, that is potentially on the line for every call that that you may be missed. So literally, their job is to some extent, at the mercy of how well you do your job. So if you blow a bunch of calls in a game, that's really important to them, they missed the playoffs, that that could be their livelihood, that's at stake. And I think as you think about how we interact with our customers, regardless of what it is that you're doing, but certainly if you're in, you know, SaaS provider, or if you're, you know, in a BPO, or whatever the case may be, right, the job that you do, impacts other people and their jobs. And so understanding how important it is to do a great job, so that other people can execute on their job effectively, and you're not impacting them negatively. I think that was one of the biggest lessons that I had to learn, because I definitely did not understand that early on. I mean, I started doing that when I was like 21. And that was not even part of my thought process, I'm still trying to figure out like, how to how to be a halfway decent official, I was pretty bad to start. But as you really move up into those higher ranks, it isn't just a game, it literally is people's livelihoods. And so that's, that's a really important lesson that I would say to anyone out there who's thinking of being an official, take it seriously, it really is important to the players to write for them to know that you are doing your best that you're working your tail off, and that you want to just get the call, right. And when you do that, almost every coach and player will recognize it, and you'll gain the respect and then you have far less problems on the field now

Rick Denton: 28:24

that you may have seen my kind of in the eye, I've asked this question of other umpires before I've even asked it of my son, and he's not in the customer experience space at all. And I've heard things like you know, communication, and that idea of trying to just manage a situation, imagine a customer service trying to manage a situation, but that you kind of went sort of that we use it too often. But that empathy, right understanding where they're coming from more specifically, that if you screw up not just the empathy of oh, I just want to understand where they're coming from and their experience, but understanding it to the degree of that if you screw up, you have cost them elements of their possible the ability to generate income for themselves and for their families. Right. And that kind of surprised me. I was not expecting to hear that. It is amazing. I wonder how many of the best customer experience people customer service people have something like that in their background. It's almost as if we should consider perhaps a contact center training ground that you have to go ref some intramural games or you have to go you have to go it seems like parents get worse up to about age 13 Then they start to mellow out so go ref like a huge 12 soccer game and then become a customer service agent. You got it nailed. You got it. You've already got the hard stuff out at that point.

Rob Dwyer: 29:50

I will say I think you've got the age just about right 12 And under is really the most difficult age group in It doesn't matter the sport. That's where you will find, for whatever reason, the most difficult parents to do as well. Most insults coming from from the stands, all of that.

Rick Denton: 30:14

I think it's because at that age, every parent still believes that their child is the next athletic star. And by the time they've hit 13, they realize that either they actually are right, you can see that trajectory and many, or Okay, well, nevermind, let's find another pass. So maybe I'll quit my Gripen from the sidelines. Oh, goodness. Well, Rob, thank you for that I really enjoyed talking about the umpiring the roughing, and how that influenced the customer experience to the point that I'm looking down and realize, oh, my gosh, we're already at a half hour. I do want to ask you one thing, though. And I know that as you do work for happy to write, and that is in the software space. And we talked about how, knowing why you purchase it, why you get into that, and often software in these tech tools in general, often the sexy purchase, right? Something a company just goes after? Because they know, well, gosh, I need technology. We talked earlier about the customer being in it, trying to coach them on how not to do that path. But I want to think of it kind of almost from your perspective as inside the software vendor. How are you making sure that people that companies aren't just buying the Tech because it's sexy? But because they're actually using it to accomplish a better experience?

Rob Dwyer: 31:27

Yeah, well, I mean, the first part just goes into those initial conversations and asking those questions like, What are you trying to accomplish? First and foremost, because if you're trying to accomplish something that we can't help you with, or I need to get that out of the way in a hurry, I don't want you blaming me that we couldn't accomplish something when I should have known that from from right, the first moment that that we talked. But I think from then on, it's also about that continued partnership, and finding out how you're using our products, how we can make them better and understanding what it is that you are accomplishing, and what you want to try to accomplish in the future. And so, as long as we keep that partnership, that open dialogue between us, and we really approach things as partners, I think we remain very confident that either we're doing something that's important and good for your organization, or potentially, we're not. And in that case, it may be a matter of just asking, What can we do. And I will tell you, our vision product actually came out of a conversation when we somebody else wanted a different product that we offered. And we said, this isn't going to accomplish what you think it's going to accomplish. But let's see if we can solve some problems that you have. And and we learned about, you know, his business challenges its sole proprietor. And after understanding how he could really benefit from some other things that we had been considering doing. We created an entirely new product. And it was really just to solve some challenges that we weren't going to solve with something else. So those conversations are critical, I think, to a good partnership, and driving value on both sides.

Rick Denton: 33:37

Conversations. I've heard that theme coming through quite a bit actually conversations, having the conversations understanding, choosing to actually understand what the customer needs, even if they're expressing a need in a different way than what you come to understand that they really should want and helping them understand how to get to that better outcome for them. I love that. I like that. Rob, let's close with that. And Rob, I want to close with given you a chance to let folks know if they want to tap into this wisdom. I got to enjoy it here for a half hour. But if they want to learn more about you, if they want to learn more about your approach to customer experience, if they want to learn more about next in queue or literary. Here's some episodes of next and Q How might folks get in touch with you to learn more?

Rob Dwyer: 34:21

I mean, I think LinkedIn is a great start. You can find me there I'm the black and white face with the blue background. If they're don't know if they're more than one robbed wire there probably are. You can go to happitu.com Happitu.com Next In Queue is available anywhere that you want to listen to podcasts, including YouTube. And if you use the new YouTube URL, it's youtube.com/@nextinqueut so any of those ways you can, you can check us out.

Rick Denton: 35:03

Awesome. Well, I will get all of that in the show notes. So no one had to take any notes. You just click those links get right over to Rob's wisdom information about happy to. And next in queue as well Rob, it was a really enjoyable conversation. I enjoyed talking about AI and getting it right, like getting into AI for the right reasons and getting those goals right. And then what should those goals be? I certainly enjoyed learning about your approach to how umpiring influence, and surprising me by how umpiring influenced your approach to customer today. And conversations. Right? It as you said, it is all about conversations, and I find that incredibly valuable. So Rob, I really do appreciate you being on the show today. Thanks for sharing your wisdom. Rob. Thank you for being on CX Passport.

Rob Dwyer: 35:45

You are welcome. And I look forward to having that steak while sitting outdoors with you.

Rick Denton: 35:56

Thanks for joining us this week on CX passport. If you liked today's episode, I have three quick next steps for you. Click subscribe on the CX passport YouTube channel or your favorite podcast app. Next, leave a comment below the video or review on your favorite podcast app so others can find it enjoy CX past four to then head over to CX passport.com For show notes and resources that can help you create tangible business results by delivering great customer experience. Until next time, I'm Rick Denton, and I believe the best meals are served outside and require a password