Michael Mattson: 0:00

The processes are supposed to deliver value to your customer. If you aren't improving that value that's delivered to the customer then what are you doing?

Rick Denton: 0:11

Customer Experience wisdom, a dash of travel talk, we've been cleared for takeout.

CX Passport Band: 0:16

The best meals are served outside and require passport.

Rick Denton: 0:21

Hey, everybody, welcome back to CX passport. Today we're joined by Michael Mattson from Hartford, Connecticut. Michael currently serves as a manager of customer experience at Travelers, where he improves the experiences of auto insurance customers through a deep understanding of empathy and customer needs. He also serves as the chief empathy officer at Walk a Mile CX. Here, Michael is dedicated to transforming how teams engage with customers advocating for a culture that sees and treats customers as individuals with unique stories and needs. Because that just simply isn't enough for Michael, he also recently became the president of the Northeast chapter of the contact center AI Association, where he builds a community committed to transforming organizational cultures to be more customer centric. I have the sense this is going to be a pretty wide ranging and thoughtful discussion around customer experience going to be a journey indeed, Michael, welcome to CX passport.

Michael Mattson: 1:25

Thank you, Rick. I'm happy to be here.

Rick Denton: 1:27

All right. Little Connecticut, little Texas going on here. We'll, we'll try not to have too much rivalry going on. But let's have a good conversation. Indeed. So insurance by its nature, is a personal product, it gets very much at the heart and the emotions. Now, in spite of that a customer may completely ignore their coverage until a meaningful moment happens to them. It takes emotional intelligence to deliver an experience a customer needs, especially at that moment. How do you help travelers, I also through your work at contact center AI, help other companies understand and deliver this level of emotional intelligence?

Michael Mattson: 2:08

Yeah, thanks, Rick, for that. Yeah, you know, I've been in the insurance field for just now six months.

Rick Denton: 2:17

All right, seasoned veteran. All right, yeah.

Michael Mattson: 2:20

But a lot of learning has happened within that timeframe. So, you know, we're just rolling with it. But what I have noticed is, I mean, yeah, it is extremely personal. And it is really weird, because you have such, you have, you don't have a lot of, like tangible interactions between the product of the brand and the customer. Right. And, in fact, the customer is hoping they have fewer. So it's literally a union kind of situation. And so from, you know, from my perspective, you know, that puts that puts more emphasis on understanding the customer what they need, that puts more emphasis on understanding, on understanding ourselves as a business being reflective on our vision, and understanding our why what we're actually doing here, outside of to make money. And, and finding that common ground, to where both the business and the customer can gain value. And so, you know, when I think about, you know, helping organizations be more emotionally intelligent, you know, there's a lot of that, like self reflection that has to occur before you can really understand through empathy, that that customers experience. And obviously, there's many channels to gain that understanding. But I think it's the it's the combination of business operational, you know, in data, right, and consumer data behavior data, and, and customer like specifications and needs, wants, like what job they're trying to do by hiring you, right, that understanding that brought all together to have a full holistic perspective is so critical. And oh,

Rick Denton: 4:21

sorry, no, keep going. Keep

Michael Mattson: 4:22

going. Nope, go ahead.

Rick Denton: 4:24

Ah, now now, I feel like a cut you off there. But it's because there's something you said in there that really intrigued me. And I think we'll carry that forward with what you were saying right there. And that is this idea that insurance is a product that a customer hopes that they never interact with, they would love to set it and forget it and just move on and let the bills be auto drafted and never engage. That has to be very challenging to then understand all the things that you just said, Because customer listening posts tend to be around areas where well the customer has spoken. But if they're not interacting with the brand, how how is travel There's or if not travellish Specifically, how can an insurance company in general, or any company that doesn't have a lot of customer touchpoints really understand their customer and then be able to act upon it?

Michael Mattson: 5:13

Yeah, you know, I think it's, it's, it can be a challenge sometimes, right? Right, you have to take, you have to take your learnings from the the interactions you do have with the customer. But then it just puts more emphasis on, on expanding your learning and like really diving into it to understand, like, what is the customer trying to accomplish, right, and get it from their, their mouths to right do your, you know, you do your consumer research, you know, do all of that to build that foundation. But the clarity in, in, what that customer's needs are, and their wants is, is the most important. And it is tough sometimes to bring in that. But you know, you take you take the sources of information that you do have, and you work with it, and you try to try to build in some context. And sometimes you have to fill it in with, with, you know, just a gut check sometimes, right? There's an art and a science aspect. And, and so balancing those two. You know, that's, that's what you that's what you do? Yeah. And and you continue to iterate right and get better and better as you go.

Rick Denton: 6:30

You remind me of something that can be a problem in the customer experience with a really kind of any sort of world. And that is the paralysis of not moving forward in the when you don't know all the information. I like what you're alluding to there. And that is okay. Well, you know, what we do know what we do know, we don't know what we don't know. But we do know, we do know, and let's do something with that. Right. And that idea of you don't have to know it all to get get started. I think as some of that also, we were talking that some of that evens fits in that emotional intelligence space. Although earlier, we were talking about kind of corporate emotional intelligence. But there was something that you had said to me when we were talking earlier. And it really stuck with me. And it said that you had said that a person needs to be emotionally intelligent themselves, before they consider working with or for customers to pretty bold statement saying you don't get to work with customers, unless you're emotionally intelligent yourself. What do you mean by that? And and why is that important? Yeah,

Michael Mattson: 7:28

there's some, there's a journey that I think everybody should, they should go down this path, right. And if you have, if you want to be an active member in society, and want to truly understand others, and like build those connections, and foster trust based relationships, then you can't do that effectively without doing the hard work on yourself. First, being more cognizant of your own, your own emotions, your own triggers your own, you know, unpacking some of your some of your baggage, right. And, and, and really like, you can't be empathetic if you haven't done any kind of self reflection, if you don't know how to if you don't know how to label your emotions or or understand the source of them. And you're just not cognizant of those things. Then how do you? How do you do that on others? Right? How can I? How can you really relate to others, you're just looking at everything on a very superficial level. So that's really what I mean by that is you don't you have to have a foundation of your own understanding. You have to do the work and educating yourself. So that you can then start building that within with others to

Rick Denton: 8:57

can So can someone I'm going to be a little bit cheeky here, I realized I realized I'm exaggerating a bit. But Can someone fake it before they actually have that? Because I would imagine that what what you're describing could be something that takes someone a lifetime hack. I'm still like, we're all kind of still working on ourselves from a mental and emotional awareness and all of those sorts of things. I know that I'm not done, and I'm in my 50s. Right. So I've had plenty of time to get it right. And I still don't. And so how can someone balance that? You know, okay, I'm still working on that. I do want to serve customers. I recognize I'm not there yet. How do you balance that, that that tension between those two worlds? Yeah.

Michael Mattson: 9:38

And I think you made a very valid point. It's not. This is not something that is either a one and done kind of thing. It's not. And it's also not an all or nothing kind of thing, right? This is this is learning. This is lifetime learning. And that is going to be a process that you go through for the rest of your life. If and you should, and I think that goes back to, you know, being taken that iterative process. And like you, you, you build some basics right, you build some basic skills, you build some basic understanding, just like, you know, when you're in school, right, you learn the fundamentals, it doesn't mean that when, when you're, you know, when you graduate, that you know, everything, right, that's the foundation to build off of, that gives you some kind of framework, some kind of building blocks, and then you take that forward, and you bring in the real world, and, and you start interacting, you start learning. And I don't know about you, but that's how I learned right by doing. And that's how I learned best. So yeah,

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Michael Mattson: 11:47

to your point about like, whether you can fake it or not. It's not a matter of faking it. It's that you just do something. And you start to be cognizant, and you start working on it live. And, and you, you may not be extremely skilled at first, and that's okay. And if you're if you're vulnerable, and you're transparent, then that's all that anybody can ask of. And if you continue to have that growth mindset, then that's that's the key, right? Having that growth mindset and being cognizant of like, Hey, this is something that, that, you know, we're going to continue to work on together. And I'm going to try to have understanding and empathy with you and we're going to work on this relationship together. Right. And and and establish some some guardrails, re establish some boundaries. And but then just being authentic with one another. That's how you start, right? And you be open to, to like improving that relationship.

Rick Denton: 12:50

I like that a lot. Now, I also like the fact that right now, let's let me get this right, my right brain has now been exhausted, and it's fatiguing a bit. And the left brain is saying, hey, wait a second, I want to play too. So let's do that. Let's let's talk about that. You come from a Lean Six Sigma background, I've got elements of that in my background, as well. And I know that it greatly influences my approach to customer experience. I'm talking about process and execution all the time, people are tired of hearing, I'm sure. So let's talk about companies that are operationally focused. So they got their left brain kicking hard, but they don't yet have that customer focused, how do you influence customer culture change in an operationally focused organization?

Michael Mattson: 13:31

Yeah, you know, I was with the United States Postal Service for nearly a decade, and talk about an organization that is very operationally focused. Yeah. And, you know, that is where I learned, you know, continuous improvement methodology, Lean Six Sigma. You know, I did Kaizen events, projects and domain x, right. And I learned the the methodology to, you know, to those systematic approaches. And, you know, the trick is that the processes are supposed to deliver value to your customer, if you aren't improving that value that's delivered to the customer, then what are you doing? Right? And so when I look at the context of continuous improvement within customer experience, isn't that the whole point? Isn't that all there? Isn't that all there is, is you're trying to better understand the customer so that you can understand how to deliver value best. And then you deliver that through processes and systems, and you make those more efficient at delivering that value. And you better align it with that precision, right. And consistency and sustainability. And I think that's something that that we struggle a lot with in customer experience, because we don't necessarily know always have that systematic approach that methodical approach. And so how can you control a process? If you don't if you're not measuring it, right? If you're not cognizant of that whole, that whole ecosystem, the whole system, and how you're delivering value, and, and then, you know, you're, you're, you're, you can't sustain that. Right? You're right. There's no way I,

Rick Denton: 15:30

I kicked back and smiled, I realized for my audio listeners, I was grinning from ear to ear on that one. And as you anticipate, because I believe so strongly on that, how customer experience has fallen short in the process. Well, Michael, can I can I pare it back to you what I think I heard you say, and but I don't want to influence you and tell me if I'm not quite catching you. Right? If we're trying to take an operational culture and make it more customer centric. I think what I heard you say is, well, actually customer people, you become more operationally centric, therefore, you will attract the operational culture into your customer world. Am I hearing that? Right?

Michael Mattson: 16:04

Look, I think it's, it's all about that balance. Right. And I think that we get so in customer experience, we get so fixated on customer understanding, which is a huge aspect of this. Right. It's so critical. And and I'm not saying that that's not, I'm not trying to diminish, right, right at all. Yeah, we don't even understand the customer. Yeah, we'll skip that part. Right. But I think that there's so much room for having a strategy, a process that delivers great experiences, that we can kind of like pull those levers and fine tune. And we can understand how that process works. But it's all about establishing that entire ecosystem, right. And looking at it all as one instead of these different aspects. I'm not saying focus more on process than customer understanding, it's, it's all the same thing. It's all about establishing that holistic perspective, and, and approach and all as one. And yes, sometimes you're going to be looking more at the process. And sometimes you're gonna be looking more at furthering your understanding a customer, but it's, it's, you're going back and forth, and back and forth. And you're always working on both all the time, so that you improve how it all aligns. And that is what it comes down to is you're never done. You're never ever done in that whole process. And that needs to be a constant cycle. And that's where that, you know, continuous improvement, those words come in, because you're always improving. And that improvement is defined by the customer. Yeah, do

Rick Denton: 17:45

Ooh, there's the quote, that that continuous improvement is defined by the customer. Ooh, tasty. I like that a lot. Michael, the the talking about going back and forth, the two different sides, that sort of thing. It reminds me of the conversation that you and I had earlier, you and I both share a love for the absolutely brilliant Apple TV show severance, which I'm so thankful is coming back for a second season, I was really worried about their strike very, very worried because they left us way too hanging to just cut that show off. Well, it also reminded you and me both about a little too much about what's expected at some companies, why is severance, this cautionary tale about real companies today, in the context of empathy. Yeah,

Michael Mattson: 18:34

I think that when I think a lot of times when employees come into, like, go into work, they're going to they're pressing that button, they're going into the elevator, and they're going down to that, you know, that that basement, you know, windowless room. I, but it's it is kind of interesting, because the way that I saw it and related it to the world of, of business and customer experience, and empathy was a lot of our environment within business is unintentionally or intentionally designed to strip humanity from the equation. Right? Think about how we analyze data, right? We're looking at, you know, we're looking at our databases, we're, we're, we're manipulating things in, you know, Excel or whatever, right and right spreadsheets. And, you know, we're, we're looking at customers based on you know, like their customer ID or some kind of identifier, right, right. Like, that's not humanity that's not representing humanity. And so it's so easy to, to forget what the outside world is like, and what the human is. phrases like when you're an employee, or when you're, you know, in business, because like, I mean, think about the phrase, it's just business, right? That's not very human centric. Not at all. It's just human. Right? Right. And, and business is all about relationships, right? Between the business, and its employees and the business and its customers and how it interacts with other businesses. Like it's all about relationships, it's all about that human connection, right? Businesses are built up, like it's their people, right? That build businesses that are that are what organizations are, right. And so it's, it's so easy for people to forget what it's like to have those experiences to, to maintain that mindset of being a person and putting everything back into that context. And I think that it severance reminded me of that, because it's like, as soon as you as soon as you go into work, then it's like, you, it's complete barrier, right? There's you, you forget what it's like, you almost have to pretend like you're relating to a customer when you're talking to them, as if you aren't also a human and a customer. Right. And so it's like, in the context of like, customer experience, I think that's where customer experience practitioners come in, we are here to, to rebuild that connection, rebuild that, that frame, that context, and you do that through that empathetic, you know, approach and, and, and you interact with the world and you bring your interactions with the world back into your your work within the business, and you put everything in context. And you you help the organization remember what it's like to exist in an actual real world. Right. And, and so that is, I think that's where we have to be very mindful, right, and rebuild those connections. And, and, and I think that's where, you know, that customer centricity kind of concept is that's really about that. But it's, it's really just about remembering that you also as a person, in a business, are a human. And you have all of these emotions, you have all of this background, like you're bringing your human into that business. And don't forget what that's like. And don't forget what it's like to to be receiving products and services from organizations and what that's like and all of the context around that.

Rick Denton: 22:57

Michael, we got deep there. And actually, you did the windowless basement. It's deep. We all know how deep it is in severance. We need a break. We absolutely need a break. And so I'm going to invite you here into the first class lounge. We'll take a little break here have a little bit of fun move quickly. But we're gonna have some fun here. What is a dream travel location from your past?

Michael Mattson: 23:15

You know, I have always wanted to go to a that I've been to. That's

Rick Denton: 23:21

right from your past. Well, we'll talk about the future here. But what's the dream travel vacation? You've been to?

Michael Mattson: 23:26

You know what I'm, I'm ashamed to say I've never left this country. Okay, there's

Rick Denton: 23:31

plenty of great places. Yeah,

Michael Mattson: 23:32

there are. There's a lot of beautiful places. I mean, I lived in Colorado for a long time I lived in northern Idaho, and talk about scenery, right and I'm a photographer at heart. And so connecting on those very aesthetic levels is my jam. So anywhere that has to do with nature. I just I adore it nice

Rick Denton: 23:59

man after my heart there. i My favorite place in the country, I believe is the southwestern US that desert kind of mountains and deserts sort of vibe, but I do love Colorado. And there's plenty of pretty places here that are dream travel occasional past. Heck, I had a guest on that. I think it'd be right before your episode of not a couple where he mentioned a place in the US as a dream travel occasion of his future. I think we sometimes when you live in a place you don't realize, Well wait. We're exotic to somebody else. It's so fantastic. These are dream travel locations for folks all around the globe. What about going forward? What is a dream travel location you've not been to yet?

Michael Mattson: 24:32

I would love to go to Amsterdam. Yeah.

Rick Denton: 24:38

Tell me why.

Michael Mattson: 24:38

There's yeah, there's something about the Netherlands. And it's just it's it's beautiful. Right. It's just obviously it's scenically. But culture wise, it's, it's incredible. It's just it's just everything right? Nice.

Rick Denton: 24:58

I like that place. Yeah, kind of like that. It Just everything I will give you one tip I was there on a work trip die years ago, maybe seven years ago at this point. And I got there a few days early. And so before the work portion of the trip began I actually stayed it was an Airbnb but was one of the House votes on the canals. And it was brilliant way to experience Amsterdam in a House vote on a canal. So I will recommend that if you have one of those limits that aren't the same as a hotel, right? Maybe I'm maybe a little less space, but it was it was nice there. What is a favorite thing of yours to eat?

Michael Mattson: 25:32

Oh, I just I love pizza. Yeah. Yeah, I think I know I'm in the Northeast. So Oh, yeah. You're

Rick Denton: 25:38

the epicenter of it. Yeah, well, you really have some good pies up there. You absolutely do. Let's go the other way. What is the thing growing up? You were forced to eat but you hated as a kid? Oh,

Michael Mattson: 25:49

man, I could not get I could not accept fish sticks. I hate it. In fact, I would hide them. What my parents did not love

Rick Denton: 26:04

with all the foods to sit idly in a corner somewhere for a few days not redness choice. Well, please don't hide any food in the first class lounge because we are going to have to exit now. What is one travel item not including your phone or your passport? That you will not leave home without?

Michael Mattson: 26:24

It's got to be my, my camera. And not on not on the phone? You know, my actual, you know, DSLR there's something there's something special about having a separate camera. Right. A different connection. Right. It's it's a it's focused on? No pun intended. It's, you know, it's it's a specialized tool.

Rick Denton: 26:58

Michael, no pun intended on the on the focus. Yeah, there may have been intended in there. We'll see. We'll have to talk off here and see, but no, that felt pretty natural there. Michael, I'm floored. We're exiting the first class lounge. And we are almost out of time. And I can't believe that. I want to ask you though, you mentioned being at the Postal Service. You've mentioned being travelers, you mentioned being in a lot of places, you also are now serving in companies that have visited organizations, let me use that word, if not companies that have visibility into other organizations. So you've seen that customer experience professionals and you've experienced this can either be sort of that lone wolf kicking against the Oh screaming, it's the wind and really individually moving customer experience forward. Or they joined this existing institutionalized customer experience approach. Conventional wisdom would have folks thinking no better to join where it's part of an established culture. But I want to explore that a little bit. What are the some of the risks if you're doing and coming into an established culture? How can that perception a better option? actually be a challenge?

Michael Mattson: 28:05

Yeah, you know, there's there's risks to both, there's challenges to both. But I think that something that we always have to remember is, it's easy to get caught in echo chambers, it's easy to get caught in groupthink. And so you have to, you have to be really cognizant of that. And, and realize that, even though you're all, you know, thinking about the same thing, and it's very, you know, engaged and customer centric, and all of those positive things, that it's not always the complete picture. And it's so important, as far as that like, continuous learning to bring in outside perspectives. And I think that's one of the things that being a lone wolf within an organization and trying to bring that in, you're kind of forced to do that, right, to bring in that those outside. You know, those outside influences those outside, you know, thoughts and concepts and practices, right. But then, of course, you're facing maybe some internal challenges with culture brand, and maybe not being ready for some of those things, and, and trying to influence that. And so it's, I think it just comes down to always expanding your perspective, always building continuing to build your tool belt, and never settling for what is common, and always challenging your own your own impressions, your own, you know, thoughts around things and have discussions with people in the space and learn about you know, what, what their philosophies are, especially those upfront where you you don't think you agree with them, like try to understand their perspectives, and ask those questions and dig in. And I bet you you'll find Some common ground, and you're also going to be growing a little bit. And yeah, it's going to be painful. And maybe you know, there's going to be some tension, it's gonna be awkward and whatnot. But that is what human connection needs is just finding that common ground and building that out together.

Rick Denton: 30:17

I am going, I'm glad that we actually are ending on that. Because as you were speaking of that one smiling from ear to ear because of what you're saying. And I'm thinking about how well that ties back to what we talked about at the beginning of the episode around emotional intelligence and understanding not only corporate emotional intelligence, but your own individual emotional intelligence, a lot of what you're describing takes a high degree of emotional intelligence to take that forward. Michael, if folks wanted to get to know a little bit more about you, your approach to customer experience, your thoughts, your your emotional, intelligent thoughts, or you know, where the best pizza is in Hartford? How can they get in touch? Yeah.

Michael Mattson: 30:56

Go to my LinkedIn profile. Connect with me, follow me. I have my Calendly link on there. So you can always book some time, and we can just chat, you know, and again, you know, have those conversations. Don't I like that have

Rick Denton: 31:12

those conversations? Well, if you want a conversation, or if you just want a good follow either way, scroll down. Michael's LinkedIn link will be there in the show notes, Michael, it was a great. It was wide ranging, as I anticipated from the introduction. Certainly I knew we were going to talk about severance because we talked about it before and I wanted to bring it into this show. There were things that surprised me today, and I always enjoy that that makes for a great journey. Michael, thank you for being on CX passport.

Michael Mattson: 31:37

My pleasure.

Rick Denton: 31:44

Thanks for joining us this week on CX Passport. If you liked today’s episode I have 3 quick next steps for you Click subscribe on the CX Passport youtube channel or your favorite podcast app Next leave a comment below the video or a review in your favorite podcast app so others can find and and enjoy CX Passport too Then, head over to cxpassport.com website for show notes and resources that can help you create tangible business results by delivering great customer experience. Until next time, I’m Rick Denton and I believe the best meals are served outside and require a passport.