Sarah Caminiti: 0:00

A leader that is in a CX team is the one that is driving the way that we communicate with our customer. They are the advocates for the team who are the advocates for the customer. And then they're also the connection to everybody else in the whole entire company. They're connecting all the dots.

Rick Denton: 0:17

Customer Experience wisdom, a dash of travel talk, we've been cleared for takeoff. The best meals are served outside and require passport. Get my boarding pass and hand it is time six passport travelers. Today I'm excited to introduce Sarah Caminiti, head of us Customer Service at AB cam, and host of epochal growth. Sarah has spent 20 years making customers feel heard and valued. Now she's celebrating growth within the CX community service journeys wide ranging manager from managing VIP sections in the travel industry at 20. To freelancing for a German travel company, and also working as a travel agent, I can assure you the first class Lounge is going to be quite a treat today. She's served in industries ranging from SAS to biotech and always driven by that golden rule, treat people with kindness and respect. Sarah's passion is reinventing the North American support experience and making frontline roles more valued. Something we can all learn from Sarah, welcome to CX passport.

Sarah Caminiti: 1:22

Thank you. I am so excited to be here. I've been counting down the days on my calendar,

Rick Denton: 1:27

I felt it was kind of the same way I was looking at this. I'm like, oh, good Monday, it's finally finally here. It Sarah, there's a whole host of CX things that I want to ask you about. And I certainly want to get into the customer, the front line space. But first, I have never heard the word ethical before. Can you tell me a little bit about your podcast? Because that word epical? I don't even know what it means. So epical growth? What's that about?

Sarah Caminiti: 1:53

Yeah, oh, I'm so excited that you asked this is so ethical is a word that I stumbled upon recently, when I was trying to figure out something that was going to articulate what it was that I just felt in my bones that I needed to put out into the world. And that was really transformative change. And epical is the result of an epic or something that enters into a new era. So that is monumental change that either is situational, global, personal, but within each person or within history, if you're moving into a new era, it was because there was something ethical that happened that caused that transformation to happen. And so I started epical operations, which was something that came off of the kindness initiative, which was a Jerry Maguire moment of reading a manifesto about why we need to remember that everybody's trying to do their best and how to use that in leadership. And from an operational standpoint, I created epical operations, because going about things a little differently and daring to do things a little differently. can plant the seeds for change? And yeah, oh, that's okay.

Rick Denton: 3:13

We, listeners, we're done. We're just going to end the episode here. I've learned a definition of a new word. I'm glad y'all got to know a little bit about Sarah. And we're done it? No, of course not. There's way too much that I want to learn from you, Sarah, I imagine we will find out a little bit more about change and epical growth and all that aspect of it. I want to talk kind of from a broad perspective, though, just leadership in general, because you had said something when we talked earlier that you were passionate about the purpose of leadership within the CX space. Now that's incredibly broad, it can also be a specific objective. Tell me more about that passion.

Sarah Caminiti: 3:47

Yeah, it's Rick, this really is something that I am so passionate about, because the impact of a CX leader. And what they can do to the success of a company as a whole is something that we don't talk about enough. The leader that is in a CX team is the one that is driving the way that we communicate with our customer. They are the advocates for the team who are than the advocates for the customer. And then there also the connection to everybody else in the whole entire company. They're connecting all the dots. And if we focus on leadership within CX as a space for opportunity for analytics, for questions, and conversation, then we are allowing ourselves as a company to prove to the customer that this isn't just something that's on our company value page. We actually value the teams that are talking to you and the leaders are the ones that are making all that happen through creating a solid foundation.

Your CX Passport Captain: 4:49

This is your captain speaking. I want to thank you for listening to CX Passport today. We’ve now reached our cruising altitude so I’ll turn that seatbelt sign off. <ding> While you’re getting comfortable, hit that Follow or Subscribe button in your favorite podcast app so you never miss an episode. I’d love it if you’d tell a friend about CX Passport and leave a review so that others can discover the show as well. Now, sit back and enjoy the rest of the episode.

Rick Denton: 5:16

you certainly came at something that is a has come up in episodes before, something that means a lot to me. And that is these values can just be words on a wall. And, and it's over customer first customer centric, yada yada whatever, it's when you've got a leader in place who can actually do that, that is both that advocate and the connector that you're describing, well, then you get away from the words on the wall. And to actually in practice, I imagine, let's combine my new learning of ethical and the leadership part that you're talking about. That there are times that a leader gets to make that kind of change, like what you're describing, they're going from values on a wall to actually creating a team that you've always wished you'd have. If you ever had that sort of epical. I'm going to stop using it. It just sounds so good to say it's a really tasty word. But in that vein, whether it's ethical or just that moment of change where you had that opportunity to create that team you've always wished you've had what does that been like?

Sarah Caminiti: 6:16

I mean, it's been ethical. It is what started all of this, it was a moment where I was able to pause and think, Okay, I've got this opportunity, I am going to be the leader, I always wish I had. And I am going to create a team that is supported by a leader that wants them to be successful. And hiring is hard. I have failed miserably at hiring when I'm hiring for my direct team. But when you get it right, and I can I honestly say one time 110% nailed it with a higher high Carla. She knows who she is, it is the most incredible thing in the entire world, because you are a unit. And everyone wants to be a part of this journey with you. And I got so sick and tired of being led by people that didn't know how to connect, and drive change and talk and be open. And I think a lot of it comes from they start in the same space that I started in of, I'm going to do things differently. The problem is they never see it done successfully themselves. Okay. So they try, and they try. And then they get stressed because they've got pressure, and they're still trying to figure this out. And then they don't want to mess up this opportunity of leadership. And so then they just go to what they've always seen. And that's, especially in the CX space, gatekeeping information, pointing fingers, a lot of micromanaging task oriented work without, without remembering what you hired these people on your team for in the first place. At least in my experience, so I wanted to do it differently. When

Rick Denton: 8:11

what a great chance to be able to do that. You had the chance to break that cycle. We've we've heard that phrase and you know, sociological sort of contexts, keeping in that business world, how, almost, why aren't we seeing that cycle broken more than the leaders? Because okay, I'm just doing what I saw before is the quote, fault. And maybe that's the wrong way to take this in a blame path. But as is the reason the motivation? Is this something that a company is driving as individuals? Should we be doing something differently? What can we do sort of, and where should we be focused? A collective way? To change that to fix that? What

Sarah Caminiti: 8:51

a great question. I think that it comes from every angle, if you are someone that is committed to figuring this out, and being open with your team and saying, I'm gonna fail, I'm not going to do everything, right. But you need to be able to come to me and tell me if I need to approach things differently. You mentioned this in the in the intro, my North Star and everything is the golden rule. And I think that that has been what has allowed me to try and to be vocal about trying, and something that I have realized is the people that are doing it well. And sticking with it and committing to it. Nobody's talking to them. Like, I mean, people within our space are we're starting to we have these great podcasts like passport where we're talking to these people and we're celebrating them, but it's it is still on an island the CX space is still its own little space and it doesn't get the same clout but a lot of other departments within companies have. And so you know that that all starts to play a role in why If someone started looking for leadership strategies from someone on a CX team, if they manage a marketing team if they manage, you know, developers team, because people in CX are talking to people every day, they're problem solving with people every day. That's why they do what they do. Yes, you should be listening to them as leaders because they know people better than anybody. That

Rick Denton: 10:21

makes a lot of sense. I, I chuckled when you made this, I was thinking, you said that. I forget exactly the phrasing now, but it was that their CX teams are perhaps on an island or not paid as much attention to or anything like that. And my gosh, how we've seen that they are I, in my opinion, somewhat undervalued because of perhaps a lack of perception of delivery of results, or those sorts of elements of it. But I was thinking of the title of the show would be the one where she makes the biggest understatement. That goes, right? I was

Sarah Caminiti: 10:53

trying to be kind Rick, I was trying to hide? Well

Rick Denton: 10:57

as as you said, and you're golden rule. And I do appreciate that. And there's another function, I want to talk more about this actually than just the CX space in general, I want to get into the frontlines, because when we talk about a role that is really undervalued, it's that frontline. I'm a big champion of them. Anybody who's actually worked on the frontline, whether it's on a context center on the floor in a retail shop, there's there's a there's both a heart and a scarring that came from that experience that you will always love and focus on that area. I think they're undervalued, you've said that they need to be more valued, which I get the sense that implies, you see, they're undervalued as well. So when there's a lot of us that know the value of the front line, like you and I, why do you think the front line in general is so undervalued today,

Sarah Caminiti: 11:46

I think that there is a big disconnect. But I also think that it's because the people on the front lines do not have the space to breathe, and to really shine and think about what it is that they're doing. And the gravity of what it is that they're doing and how hard it is. I worked in an all hands support team and I taught developers how to be customer support professionals. And they still say it was the most difficult but eye opening onboarding process that they've ever had. Because the complexities that are required within quality, customer support is on a level that is so much larger than anyone that is not in it and given the space to be in it fully understands. And so yeah, it's it's, it's because people don't totally get what goes into every single conversation that we have with customers. We are checking accounts, we are checking past conversations we are analyzing to make sure that they're actually asking for what they're asking for. We are formulating questions in a way that is digestible, but approachable and makes them feel like they're safe to come back and ask more but confident to do things on their own. It's like I could keep going and going and going about all the things that happened within one quick, I forgot my password email. Right. And that's every day and then you don't get to celebrate those wins, because you move on to the next, you move on to the next. And it's just your day.

Rick Denton: 13:23

It's such an important role. I'm trying to think about where my brain is going with this. It's everything you're saying it's so important. It's so important. There's such a logic, but the those of us inside, it's almost like we're in an echo chamber. Why do you think it is that they're not as valued in that way? What is it almost in the vein of what we were talking about before? How do we break that cycle? And how do we elevate that frontline and understand why they've been undervalued and then help elevate their value in the wider company as a whole?

Sarah Caminiti: 13:57

Well, let's take a second to think about what the actual job title is customer service, it is servitude, it is the when you think about the the foundations of this entire department, it is to help others be successful to sacrifice your time and yourself to help others succeed. And that goes back to me in any sort of role that is a service driven role. How were those people treated? How are they looked at how were they were they the ones that were invited to the executive lunch the people that were opening up the door for you at the in the building or the people that were cashing you out at the at the counter of of the department store back in the days? No, it is typically women or people that were on the lower end of of the financial landscape. And you were looked down on because you were serving and I mean We can talk all day about that's totally changed because it's on company values pages, but you're subconsciously. I think that while many don't realize what they're doing when they're doing it, it is service, we're providing the service. That's

Rick Denton: 15:18

okay. So the term service that's insightful to me how you're bringing that as a reason why it might be valid, because of that person, that role is serving me, you brought something else into this that I want to pull it this a little bit. And we talked about a little bit before recording or whatever, but that traditionally, the customer service role had been filled by primarily women. Yes. And that had an influence into some of its undervaluing. So think about that, from not just the frontline perspective. But you've had roles in the tech space and other areas, you've shared some of those realities of being a woman in the tech space. I don't even know exactly how to frame this question. But just let's pull it that thread a little bit of what does that mean? And what was that experience like? And how is that influencing our perceptions of the frontline? And how can we get about changing some of those perceptions and realities, so that we don't carry that baggage of the past that you're describing? Well, I

Sarah Caminiti: 16:20

think the best way that we can change this is by having people ask questions publicly, and people feel able to answer them fully. The quieter we are about what's going on, nothing's gonna change. But we also can't be, you know, angry and sad and depressed about it all the time and not try to do anything about it. Because why? Like we have to, we have to try and ignite some, some change. So as a woman that's been in the tech space and in leadership roles. I think the best example is a most recent one where I had to send an email that was kind of ending a conversation, a partnership, what have you. And it was with a man that had I had my reservations about his who he was, I didn't really totally, totally trust him. But I just want to give him the benefit of the doubt. And I had a friend of mine, that's a therapist read the email that I wrote before I sent it to make sure that my tone was correct. My intentions were clear things within the amicably. My reply from him. Why are you being so aggressive? Whoa, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, kind of, oh, my, it gets better. It gets better. It was followed up with what I am a champion of women. This had nothing to do with being a woman also, like, none of this had anything to do with my gender. And he just came out with it. Yeah. And then it just kept going from there. I'm a champion of women. I'm a cheerleader of you. I always support you. And it's like, nothing that I wrote had anything to do with any of this. Oh, my god, is that the default? To make you? I don't know. I don't even know. I don't even know the answer for it to me. Yeah. What like, Why didn't your head go there in the first place? But that's not uncommon.

Rick Denton: 18:23

I? Well. I hope I'm not interrupting your flow there. But my reactions are because I'm shocked to hear that that was it. Like, I've been trying to imagine, let's say that I had typed that email. Right. I, I not knowing the email. I haven't read it. But I trust you. I know you, Sarah, that sort of thing. I can't imagine that I would have received a response that said, Rick, that is that's very aggressive. And I'm a champion of men. And I'm like, that has, there's nothing in this conversation that has anything to do with what I'm not being aggressive and to my gender is irrelevant to this. And so to hear that kind of experience, and what I meant when I said baggage earlier is not the people that are experiencing this, you know, getting hit by this, but rather those that are carrying some sort of misconceived notion of what expectations and gender roles were of the past and why that's caring. I guess I'm you can tell I'm having trouble my words here. I'm frustrated and shocked to hear that it's continuing in such a specific manner, like you're describing today that doesn't, I can't identify with that. And so where does the change come from? How are we going to? How are we gonna do this? Either the front lines or even what you're describing from just a women in tech space? Yeah,

Sarah Caminiti: 19:37

I think that the change has to happen because whoever it was that sent out the memo that said, if you're a guy, you need to say that you're you're a champion of anyone, or you're, you're taking a chance or connect to any sort of success of hiring a very qualified human being to yourself. Um, Yeah, that needs to go so far away. That is making everything so much worse. If you were talking about a successful person that you had some sort of connection with in the past, talk about them as qualified individuals that were very successful in their job, gender aside, that has nothing to do with skill level. It is that it's that the power dynamic that has that I've realized as I've gotten older, and I've been able to kind of analyze different situations that either myself or colleagues have found themselves in have. Now it's kind of like you owe them, and they're taking some of the credit for for you, or no one would have seen the your potential because of whatever. And I'm here to save the day. And it's, it's well meaning people, it's not that these are people that do not do wonderful things and truly do see that women deserve as much as as their counterpart. But in the CX space, I think the statistics are what 60 or 70% of people that are in CX are women. And I think it's like, what, like 75, I'm getting the stats all wrong, but a large percentage way over half are men that are in leadership roles. And

Rick Denton: 21:21

that that's wrong, right? That's not how it should be. Right? No, you'd expect the percentages to be somewhat well, I guess I shouldn't use the word it you shouldn't expect, you would hope that the percentages would be more in line. Yeah.

Sarah Caminiti: 21:32

So how are we going to change this, we're just going to let people that are good at their jobs succeed and support them to be successful. And I think that that plays into a lot of what I'm trying to do in talking about leadership strategies, it's kind of taking yourself out of it by kind of putting yourself in the shoes of the person. So how would I feel? If if I was in the situation? How would I feel if I was struggling to do my job? Well, and I didn't feel like I could come to somebody and ask questions. How would I feel if I was hesitant to, to apply for this job? I mean, women don't apply for jobs if they do not feel like they are 110% qualified for it. And men do. So.

Rick Denton: 22:20

Why? Guilty? Yeah,

Sarah Caminiti: 22:22

I mean, it's a it's a, it's an internal dialogue, it's a it's an empowerment thing. It's a confidence thing. It's, it's seeing what's possible when your methods work. And, and knowing that a lot of the time, most of the time, 99.9% of the time, the things that are happening to you the words that people are using, when they're talking to you, nothing to do with you. It is, and that's a skill, I think that I've learned in customer service or customer support, people have bad days, people's coffees are cold, they, you just kind of hit them at the wrong time. And remembering that no one really has the time in their day to plot large things against you. Like, it's like you could be very important still still, no one's paying that close of attention. But we get in our heads, we get in our heads, and we don't have any word vent. We don't have anywhere to talk, talk it out with someone. And so why can't we make that such a huge part of team success? Just remembering we are all people. So how are we going to change this from the front lines, we're going to be vocal about it. We're going to say this is what we're doing. This is what we need to succeed. This is what happens when we are given the tools and the space to succeed.

Rick Denton: 23:50

Sarah, we got into some really deep elements there and important and impactful, like real, that's real conversation that it goes beyond perhaps things that we've talked about inside of sales password before and I'm so glad that you brought us into that path into that conversation. I will say that I feel like we need a little break though. And so let's take a little break. Let's you and me take a little breather. And we're going to enjoy a little first class lounge here just like a trip. You know the trip is great, but there can be a time for a little break and that's what we're going to do right here. What is the dream travel location from your past?

Sarah Caminiti: 24:30

I cannot wait to go back to Santiago de Compostella. In Spain, I hiked the Camino de Santiago 500 miles when I was like 19 and I cannot wait to take my husband and my two little boys there and and show them this really, really special place without me being covered in dirt and wearing carhart's and being able to take it all when I

Rick Denton: 24:55

did not do the Camino de Santiago. I did do the cliche backpack I can trip post college. And I Yeah, it was a budget of 50 US dollars a day. Yeah, there was a lot of dirt. I don't even. I don't know if cars were around for me, but plenty plenty of dirty and plenty of not so good. Yeah. It's kind of nice being an adult when you can go back with a little budget the little a little bigger than the 50 a day. So yes, I can appreciate that. And what a great thought of that was a dream from your past that you want to introduce to your family going forward. That's going to be awesome. Looking forward. What is a dream travel occasion that you've not been to yet?

Sarah Caminiti: 25:33

Oh, I mean, how much time do we have? No, the one that's at the top of my list right now is Malta. I really want to go to Malta. And so yeah, I think that'd be a lot of fun. Oh

Rick Denton: 25:45

my gosh, okay, you saw if you're a listener, you didn't see me kind of my eyes brighten up. But if you're a recurring listener, you know why they did? Because Sarah just a few episodes ago, Scott Lee Holloway from Malta was on the show. And he was my first Maltese guest. So you and Scott Lee Holloway need to connect as fellow CXOs and fellow alums of CX passport and he probably will have some insider tips for Malta for you that would be fun if your video and share this with the six passport folks later in life when when you get all the things just truly a few episodes ago. That's awesome. Well, what is the total switch here but what is a favorite thing of yours to eat?

Sarah Caminiti: 26:29

Oh man, I am on such a desert kick. lately. I have never been such a sweet person but I could have it for every meal but there is so Whole Foods makes the cake called the berry Chantilly cake. And they invented it. I've looked up the recipe and I'm not going to try it myself because I'm just going to stick with what's great. And I could eat it literally 24/7 365 days a year and I would never grow tired of it.

Rick Denton: 26:56

Well, I'm gonna have to check that one out. That is not what I know. But it sounded tasty so I'm gonna have to get get after that one. Let's look the other direction. What is something you were forced to eat when you were growing up but you hated as a kid? lima beans. Yeah,

Sarah Caminiti: 27:12

all day that chalky, chalky mess. I wanted nothing to do with

Rick Denton: 27:16

it. And there's some really great peas and beans out there. What is it about lima beans that are just hideous.

Sarah Caminiti: 27:21

I know it's just that like they want to see what your reaction is going to be. Just want to just keep trying maybe maybe something will change. It's like those

Rick Denton: 27:30

meme videos where you know you put a little lemon juice on your finger and you put it on the baby's face. Yeah, so yeah, lima beans are just a mean test. Well, let's exit the lounge here. But before we do what is one travel item not including your passport, not including your phone that you will not leave home without.

Sarah Caminiti: 27:46

I feel like this is so unoriginal, but I gotta say my air pods being able to get into the zone when you are traveling either you know, on your own or for a work trip. And just be present with yourself and helps kind of with overwhelm of airports that helps with just kind of reconnecting with with everything. Different songs hold different meanings. And it's nice to have those songs on your trips to think back on. And I think everywhere I've gone I have different songs that when they come on it brings me back there and I think that's pretty special.

Rick Denton: 28:29

There I love that. And yeah, musics important. I like just the headphones in the air pods just don't shut everybody else out. It's not a kindness element. And there's no one to listen anyway. But yes, the music The the the ability to really enjoy and kind of almost provide that soundtrack to what your experiences so delightful. Sir, there's a theme that we've talked about going through and it's kind of talking about the undervalue the underrepresented, kind of causing change and making making things better for folks inside of customer experience, or even just inside a business that may not have had the same sort of opportunity starting at the beginning. And that was something that you had talked about. And then looking at the clock, I think this is going to be the last thing that I'm able to ask you. And then I got about five or six more that I want to do. But you have talked about CX community, you've talked about events, the events are very important to you as well, we've had those kinds of conversations before and that that community aspect of them. But when you and I were talking about events, you think of events as sort of the big company, perhaps higher in the corporate hierarchy. It's not really the small startups or the mid size or even like remote agents or customer support. They feel underrepresented at events often. What are some of the gaps in that space that you have observed? And what is it about that? You think that folks in that space either aren't as comfortable attending or just aren't given the opportunity to attend? What What explains that gap?

Sarah Caminiti: 29:57

I'm so pumped that you asked to speak Because I think about this frequently there's a so there was an elevate CX event coming up. And it is one that I've been working with Sarah Hatter on and she just another CX past.

Rick Denton: 30:13

Her episode is coming up very shortly. So that's awesome. Let me look at my, my guest list here elevate CX

Sarah Caminiti: 30:24

Oh no, no. Well, I mean Sirhan is the one that introduced me to you. Exactly. But thank you for that sir header. But no these these events are special because these events are ways that we can ignite change. Because these events are spaces where you're able to hear people that did it dare to do it succeeded failed, how they learned from it, how they tried it again next time. And unfortunately, going back to the power dynamic of things, it can be really hard to ask to go to these things. And unfortunately, also people in the CX space usually are not the highest paid people. And so going on all of these adventures to conferences, may not be something that they can afford to do on their own. And so asking your company, if it's something that they would help sponsor can be really daunting, especially since sometimes you're like waiting, you're kind of holding on okay, I really, I know that I need someone else on my team, or I know that I need the software. I'm not going to risk this ask on me going to Denver for a couple of days. Yeah. Because then when I come back around, and ask for the thing that I need for my team, no, it's it's gone. And that sort of mentality and not feeling safe enough to try is, I think one of the things that makes these events so special, because you see the value, you see the you see the power that is possible within the CX space, if you trust yourself, right, if you try, and the people around you are here, and they are excited to help you we built a career on helping people of course, we're going to lift those up around us. And so, yeah, I think that it's a, it's hard to ask, it's hard to be able to articulate the value, because it's not like you're learning sales strategies, but you're learning ways to build better teams, you're learning ways to connect on a deeper level with customers, and you're learning ways to be a competent leader. And that in and of itself, holds so much value, because that impacts everything. If you are not a confident leader, then you will not be as successful as you could be. And if you can't become a confident leader, then it's because of the people that are leading you that are not giving you the tools that you need to be successful.

Rick Denton: 32:53

Oh my gosh. We're, we're full circle. I don't know. I don't think you did that on purpose. But you've taken us right back to some of those first things that we talked about. Once we got past the definition of epochal, but, you know, once we epically, see, see, I knew I would get it wrong, but epical why is that? I gotta figure out why I'm mispronouncing that. But epical. taking us back to that after we did that. It was the leadership definition. And how do we break that chain of and so if someone is sitting there thinking, I'm not ready to ask for that, right? I'm uncomfortable because of the leader that they've been. It's these events, it's this community building that can start to provide examples of, hey, this is actually what a good leadership looks like it model it not what you're seeing, but what you're perhaps experiencing at this conference, or those sorts of things there. We have been all over the map. I'm not sure where even on the map and some of the things that we talked about that yet. Well, this passport went to some unnamed countries. There's some countries that weren't even allowed to be stamped in our passport. And so those are the best journeys. And I value this conversation. I'm so glad that I got to have this with you. And I got to learn from you today. Because of that, that it was all over the map. And I mean that in the good sort of way, not in the disconnected but rather the this was the kind of topic the kind of topics that need to be covered. And the things that can help me learn and help others learn as they advance not just in customer experience, but in careers overall, if folks wanted to have a little more knowledge about you, maybe even have conversations as wide ranging like this with you or learn just more about your approach to customer experience and beyond. What's the best way for them to get in touch with you? Yes.

Sarah Caminiti: 34:37

So I'm always around. You can find me on LinkedIn, send me a message on LinkedIn. I'm part of the support driven and ethical CRM is not typical, the Elevate CX community as well. You can ping me on slack there but really, if you want to learn about who I am and what I'm passionate about, listen to ethical growth. I am not quiet on those. I tried to be more quiet because I'm not the Wouldn't being interviewed, but I do have the opportunity but gift to, to talk to some really incredible people. And in and out of CX I mean leadership is leadership and I love I love connecting with others and, and being of any sort of help that I can especially if you're trying to get to these conferences send me a message I will help you figure out how to communicate this with with your company. But

Rick Denton: 35:28

like that, yeah. So So folks, I'm gonna get that all that well, at least most of that into the show notes there certainly a link to the podcast and link to the LinkedIn aspect of it. And what a little offer there folks, I don't know if it makes sure you heard that. You want to you want the insider key to unlock your path to go into events reach out to Sarah because it sounds like she's got that key. Sarah, it was an enjoyable conversation and a really insightful one. Thank you for being on CX passport.

Sarah Caminiti: 35:58

Thank you, Rick, thanks for giving me the chance to, to go into these unknown territories with you. And you're right. It's these kinds of conversations that need to be had. And I appreciate people like you that are giving a space for it to happen. So thank you.

Rick Denton: 36:14

Thanks for joining us this week on CX Passport. If you liked today’s episode I have 3 quick next steps for you Click subscribe on the CX Passport youtube channel or your favorite podcast app Next leave a comment below the video or a review in your favorite podcast app so others can find and and enjoy CX Passport too Then, head over to cxpassport.com website for show notes and resources that can help you create tangible business results by delivering great customer experience. Until next time, I’m Rick Denton and I believe the best meals are served outside and require a passport.