Marcus Karlsson: 0:00

For the program to be successful, there has to be executive support, C level support. When it's too much of a siloed initiative, without the company wide strategy, it's never going to be successful.

Rick Denton: 0:12

CustomerExperience wisdom, a dash of travel talk. We've been cleared for takeoff. The best meals are served outside and require passport. Would you expect to mix Arctic warfare and experience design and a new country for CX passport into one episode? Well, that's exactly what you get today, as I get the chance to talk with Marcus Carlson, our first guest from Sweden. Marcus brings a wealth of experience from roles that blend customer experience strategy and consulting across the Nordics, currently serving as a customer experience strategist at S E B, Marcus focuses on enhancing how a company understands and serves its customers through an innovative NPS program and targeted research before S E B, Marcus played a crucial role at Medallia designing top tier CX solutions that led to multiple six figure deals across the Nordics, Benelux and Dach regions, with a background that includes time yeah as an Army Ranger in the Swedish Armed Forces. Marcus's journey is as diverse as it is impressive, from that Arctic warfare to transforming customer experiences. Marcus, has seen it all. Get your passport out, y'all. We have arrived in Sweden. Marcus, welcome to CX passport. Thank

Marcus Karlsson: 1:30

you, Rick, thanks for having me. Thank you for that introduction.

Rick Denton: 1:34

The smile is genuine. I am one. I love checking off a new country then, yeah, when you told me some of your background is, holy crap, this is gonna be fun, you did when we met that first time. Shared a phrase with me when we very first talked, and I really I dug it. Companies should stop hunting KPIs. Tell me more about that thought, right?

Marcus Karlsson: 1:58

And what what I meant when I said was specifically related to CX KPIs, because what I've seen is that I mean in the context of CX, the metric that gets used most of the time is MPs. And the problem with hunting MPs too much and focusing on too much on it as a KPI is that one it's extremely susceptible to tampering. I mean, you can, you can choose So, so this, I mean, this is this place into how you look at it. So you can choose to look at specific subset of your customers. You can choose to look at specific journeys, or part of journeys where the MPs is extremely high, and then you communicate that, because you want to make sure everything looks good. But you can also tamper with it in terms of who gets the surveys right. You can only send it to customers that you know are going to be happy about or you can, as every auto dealership in the States feels like they do. You know, they tell their customers, hey, please only give us a NINE and a

Rick Denton: 3:01

10, otherwise my kids will go hungry. I'll lose my job. You know, my boss will stab my tires. Yeah, just

Marcus Karlsson: 3:07

ignore the surface. It's so susceptible to tampering. I'm not I still think MPs is a very valuable metric, but the value lies in the behavior and not in the sort of look at this data point. This is, this is what it is, because it is a subset of your customers responding, and that the amount of responses go down every year. So what I think, you know, instead of hunting it and just focusing on the KPI and the digit, focus on the behavior behind it. So instead of sharing, I mean, I would, I haven't seen this, but I would love in a team meeting, you know, even in, like, a big company wide meeting, instead of the the leader, the CEO over department head, talking about, this is our MPs bring up a story of, yeah, you know, an employee doing something that exemplifies really good, you know, CX, behavior, yes, a customer wasn't happy. We reached out to them. This is the actions we took, because those stories, one, they stick with you, but two, it enforces their behavior. Of CX, instead of just this digit that's so susceptible temperate that

Rick Denton: 4:12

is, I love it when I've actually been a part of companies that have I've seen that transition from the scorecard to the storytelling to the number is was the objective. And I love the phrase, right? I talked about a number being the objective, but really it's that KPI hunting. How can I find that KPI that makes my team look the best, or make sure that I get the incentive that I want to get paid, or my bonus at the end of the year? I've seen them transition to that storytelling, the impact of that storytelling, and getting into the why behind it. It has been so valuable, and what I've seen is so much of that that KPI hunting, to stick with your phrase, comes from this survey based customer insight culture, even you said there that you know response rates are going down anyway. So if surveys are declining, or even in many areas obsolete or just abuse, the heck out of them, like the car dealership. One where would you recommend a customer, a client, a company? Go beyond the survey? What are some of these new sources of customer insight?

Marcus Karlsson: 5:08

Well, good question, and I think the industry has to go that way, right? Because customers are getting sick of surveys, the response rates are going down. So you have to look at other ways of understanding but but at the same time, customer experience is more important than ever, so you have to figure out, where do we get these insights from it? An example that I like to think of is, you know, if you Rick were running a grocery store, and if you were able to follow customers, just walk behind them, if you saw a customer walk swiftly into the store, walk to a specific aisle, to a specific shelf, to specific, you know, subset of that shelf. And then two seconds later, they just turned around and walked out. And then you could see that, ah, on this shelf we were there were snow stock, we were sold out, right? You would know why they came, what they were looking for, and why they left. And you could deduct their experience fairly accurately, right? So in a grocery store setting, we can't really do that, because it's not feasible. It's certainly

Rick Denton: 6:07

not scalable. That's it's very creepy, too. I

Marcus Karlsson: 6:12

could have some type of AI solution that looks guess you at, sure, yeah, it'd be it'd be different. But instead, you know, with digital channels, websites and apps, you can do this, and I know companies that do it right, where you can see why customers come like, what they're trying to find, and where they're clicking, where they're hovering, all of these observed data points tell you not everything, but I would say most of what you need to know about the customer experience, and then for certain behaviors They just can't understand. You can use a survey to try to understand that behavior, or interviews or something else, but I think there's a ton of untapped insights that come from just looking at what the customer is doing. Instead of asking,

Your CX Passport Captain: 6:54

This is your captain speaking. I want to thank you for listening to CX Passport today. We’ve now reached our cruising altitude so I’ll turn that seatbelt sign off. <ding> While you’re getting comfortable, hit that Follow or Subscribe button in your favorite podcast app so you never miss an episode. I’d love it if you’d tell a friend about CX Passport and leave a review so that others can discover the show as well. Now, sit back and enjoy the rest of the episode.

Rick Denton: 7:21

Yeah, and that, I've, I've heard others say something kind of similar, that it's the voice of the customer. Sometimes is not necessarily the literal voice, the spoken or the written or whatever, but rather the observed behavior is a voice of the customer. Have you found that companies you said something there of, hey, if there's something you don't quite understand, you can use a survey to get at that. That seems the reverse order of what, at least historically, I think most companies have done, and that is, do the survey the mass and then distill down, okay, what are the behaviors we're seeing inside of that, right? How have you seen companies sort of make that flip mentally? How, what? What is it that convinces them to go after behavior before survey?

Marcus Karlsson: 8:05

I think it has to be driven from different angles, right? Because the surveys, I mean, if you go back 20 years ago, it's the market research team that's that was very siloed. Who started doing, you know, who were doing surveys, and then they might have gotten tapped to do the CX program or MPs. But as digital analytics became, you know, a big thing, I think those teams sat on some of the tools that could do that. So as they're, you know, as those teams got more of a voice inside the company, I think they were the ones leading that chart right? Because they've always my experience is that many teams working with conversion optimization and website analytics, they're skeptical of service because they're like, well, you're only asking a subset of the customers, and maybe 2% of those actually respond to it. With our analytics tools, we look at every single customer, so in some cases, I think different departments have to drive it and introduce it, because the traditional market research teams aren't going to do it. You

Rick Denton: 9:06

know, that's that's a view that I haven't heard as it may be ever or as often. And it's more, it's less about, hey, we've got this new technology tool or we've got but rather, it's more about the human and legacy behavior that has to be overcome in the company, right? And so your teams might be reluctant to do that or to adopt that, and it's bringing some of those teams together, be it the I know I'm not using the right phrases here, but the survey team versus the digital analytics team, and bringing that all together into the discipline of customer experience,

Marcus Karlsson: 9:39

I think that's it's a little bit of speculation on my end, because I haven't observed sort of the full journey of such a such a transition, like I've worked with companies who have been on one side of it, but I haven't seen the full journey. So I can piece together what I've seen. But that's a combination of speculation mixed with some. Of the things that I've seen,

Rick Denton: 10:01

yeah, and which, hey, the reality is our experiences are what shape our insights. And so you're right. I only know what I've seen or what I've heard and learned from from guests on CX passport, and you're right. So that's the experience and the insight to share for sure. So Marcus, in your consulting past, I know you've worked on that pre solution design for a well known experience management tool. It's that solution design that I want to talk about, because to me, that is the the helping a client go beyond just buying a tool and into an overall approach to experience design. So how should a company be thinking about experience management and an experience management tool and then develop those right processes to create that overall experience design that ultimately creates tangible business results, right?

Marcus Karlsson: 10:49

So I think for starters, for the program to be successful, there has to be executive support or C level support. I know it's a cliche. People talk about it, maybe too often, but my experience is that when it's too much of a siloed initiative without, you know, the company wide strategy going into that, it's never going to be successful. And second, it needs to be more than a point solution for service, right? It needs to, we talked about before, observe data. It needs to probably not collect it, because I don't know if any of them do, but they need to have really good integrations with tools that collect behaviors from customers, and then we're able to process that data really well. So it's not just focus on survey data. I think that was, I think, really important. It needs to foster the right behaviors that we want, right so we talked earlier about not the KPI hunting, but the behaviors instead, and so is the tool promoting those behaviors. Meaning, is the tool only set up for one or two power users, or is it really set up for hundreds, if not 1000s, of users? All can see their data in a really, you know, nice way that applies to them. Does it have case management or does it implement really well, integrate really well with the case management tool, so that you're actually taking action on the insights that you're collecting and what you're seeing. And then to your last point about it being, you know, achieving business results. You know, this is something that you see way too often, too is that these CX programs aren't really connected to financial outcomes. They're connected to CSAT or MPs. And it kind of stops there. But what I think they have to do is, you need to be able to extend it to say, Okay, well, what impact are our CX actions having on actual financial outcomes, like, how much money is it saving us? How much more revenue is coming in as a result of this? And if your tool is not helping you with that, it's never going to be seen as that important, and it's going to be something that's put on the chopping block. If things go bad, you have to cut, you know, cut costs. Boy, there's a lots of things, but, you know, starting at the level being bought in fostering the right behavior, but also extending all the way out to can we link this to actual financial outcomes, not just CSAT or, you know, other advantage, of course,

Rick Denton: 13:17

and so much of that, I love that you kind of walked through that journey. I almost hate to use that word, but ultimately getting to there even things like tying it to the case manager. These are process these are execution decisions that have to be made. And it's not just we bought a nice tool. Look at this nice report, look at our dashboard, but rather, how does this tie into the processes? And if they don't exist, create the processes to do something with it, and then ultimately, why am I doing this? If I'm doing it for a CSET, forget about it. But if I'm doing it to improve a financial result, exactly, getting to that point, my neck was getting a little sore from nodding, agreeing with you. All right, I got to switch it up on you a little bit here. And long time CX passport travelers will know that this is the question I'm about to ask. But I love it. I love it when we go into a new region. It's an area I mentioned I've spent an overnight in Stockholm on my way back from the Soviet Union in 1990 or 91 so I barely know Sweden. I want to know more about what is, what's customer experience like there in Sweden, both in the CX industry, and simply, what's it like to be a customer in Sweden?

Marcus Karlsson: 14:26

Well, the short answer is it's not as mature as other markets. And by other markets I mean the United States, because I've lived and worked there. So you know the phrase the customer's King? That phrase hasn't made it over here, which is ironic, because we're a monarchy and you're not, yes, think of that. But we don't as a as a customer, you're not, you don't have the same return windows. The return policies are not as generous, the customer service is not. People aren't as friendly, I would say. So it's certainly a step down in the reach. Setting for customers. Now, I will say for the digital side, probably not as much. We were an early adopter of the internet a lot of well, by European standards, we have a lot of tech companies. So I think on the digital side, we do pretty well. Experience Design is huge in Sweden, and user experience and so for digital tools like Spotify and others, I think they provide a pretty good customer experience. But on the retail side, if you're coming in as a tourist, it's not great. But I don't know if any European country is great, honestly, compared to compared to us. There's the story that I heard that there was someone walked into Nordstroms with a set of tires and was able to return them, right?

Rick Denton: 15:40

Yeah, that's the legendary Nordstrom tour, even though Nordstrom doesn't sell tires, right?

Marcus Karlsson: 15:44

And something like that would, and it might have not happened in Nordstrom, but it could have like Visa, because I brought the Nordstroms, and they were really good about custom experience. But that would have never happened Sweden. In terms of the CX industry, we're also fairly behind. I mean, a lot of the thinking and the tools come from us. I think we're still very sort of reliant, and oftentimes the team sits in a silo. Data is not typically shared that well across organizations, CX data. So I think we're we're behind, certainly the US, but probably even some of the leading companies in Europe, but on the digital side, and again, connected to user experience and digital analytics. Yeah, I feel like we do pretty well.

Rick Denton: 16:37

Marcus, that I like how you separated that out, even though it's all customer experience. But there's, there are, there's nuances to it. And the digital adoption, the technology adoption in Sweden, and the experience that sits there sounds like it's ahead. I will tell you this you said a couple times, you know, it's not as good as it is in the US, trust me, we got plenty of survey based companies, and we got plenty of silos, or, as you've seen, you know, teams that are struggling to even exist. So fear not. Sweden may not be as behind. Who knows? The US may be turning to look at Sweden as well, because we certainly have our challenges in the customer experience, customer service space for sure, which is why it's time for us to take a little break here. You mentioned you've been in the US. I'm sure that there have been times that you've had some long travel, and a first class Lounge is really nice to stop down. And so let's do that today, or move quickly here and hopefully have a little bit of fun. What is a dream travel location from your past?

Marcus Karlsson: 17:32

I would say region. So it's Germany's largest island. It's not that far from Sweden at all. In fact, it used to be part of Sweden in the 1600s but we were there a few years ago this time of year, so in the fall. So this is of the of Germany's northern coast. Specifically, we visited a hunting castle in a leaf forest, and they have a steam train there that's still operating, that's over 100 years old. So that experience of going through this leaf forest in the fall on this 100 plus year old Steven train was incredible. And I would also go back and

Rick Denton: 18:07

say, because I just want to make sure I heard it say which island it was.

Marcus Karlsson: 18:11

It's called Riga. Okay, gotcha. Oh, man.

Rick Denton: 18:14

What I love about this, especially when I'm talking to folks from around the globe, is the dream travel locations are ones that I've never heard of, and how awesome that it's this beautiful island just off the coast German What a fun little fact, I guess fun to us now, maybe in the 1600s it wasn't so fun that it used to be under Swedish control. Let's go the other direction. What is a dream travel location you've not been to yet? I

Marcus Karlsson: 18:38

would say any. I've never been to tropical island, so I'm thinking, like, Cook Islands, Bora, Bora, Maldives, any tropical island? Sounds incredible. I've always wanted to go to one. Okay? I like, not Pinky, just tropical island, just anything that's got no palm tree, yeah? Turquoise water, yeah? Coconuts. That's that to me as a kid, growing up, sounded like the ideal vacation, but it's just extremely far away from Sweden, so I've never made it Well,

Rick Denton: 19:09

that's what I was thinking. As you say that I can see why that not only because of what you're describing, the distance and just the appeal of having never done it before. We're recording this October. Let's see. Look October 16, and I imagine that the weather is turning a little cooler, the light is fading in Sweden, so that appeal for the beach, it can certainly be a very nice way to spend the winter. What is a favorite thing of yours to eat

Marcus Karlsson: 19:36

right now? It's I'm really into Asian food right now. And I know it's a very vague statement, but I guess Thai food, specifically, it's, I find that it's extremely flavorful and lots of vegetables, yeah, which is, which is what I'm craving right now.

Rick Denton: 19:50

That's awesome.

Marcus Karlsson: 19:51

If I whenever I make food or go out, I prefer to go to Asian, specifically Thai restaurants.

Rick Denton: 19:56

That's awesome. And you know what I love about Thai food, and Asian food is how it's just, it's. And the globe like you truly can find in a really good, at least a reasonably good, Thai restaurant at just about anywhere I was in, I was in Fort Wayne, Indiana, and I found a good Thai restaurant there. So if I can find it at Fort Wayne, you can find it. So yeah, I'm a lover of Thai food. What about the other way Marcus? What is something you were forced to eat growing up, but you hated as a kid.

Marcus Karlsson: 20:24

I don't think I wasn't forced from home to eat this, but at school every once in a while. So in Sweden, you get school lunch. Okay, lunch every day, but fairly often. Well, it seemed fairly often to me as a kid, we were fed blood pudding, which I don't know what it is, but it's tasted about as terrible as it sounds,

Rick Denton: 20:42

certainly not very marketed, marketed very well with the title no

Marcus Karlsson: 20:46

and I could not muster to eat it, and I still, oh, man,

Rick Denton: 20:49

yeah, I can understand that's not one that you've grown to love. You're saying no,

Marcus Karlsson: 20:56

never made the chest towards

Rick Denton: 20:57

liking it. Well, then we'll get back to just thinking about Thai food when we think about food, no more blood pudding. What is it's time to leave the lounge. Unfortunately, one travel item, not including your phone, not including your passport, that you will not leave home without. Well,

Marcus Karlsson: 21:10

I'm gonna, I'm gonna say my running clothes slash running shoes, right? So it's not an item, but I'm bundling this together, yeah. So when I'm somewhere new, or even someplace I've been, but just not at home. I'd love to bring my budded clothes to go exploring in the morning to see as much as possible.

Rick Denton: 21:34

Marcus, I like that, and it's interesting. There was an era of CX passport where several guests in a row talked about their fitness clothes or their shoes or something like, Excuse me, and I haven't heard that recently. I'm glad you're bringing that back, because there's almost no better way to explore a destination than on foot, and running is a great way to almost de touristize yourself. There's a weird word is, is you're out there in the community, and folks almost may not even see you as a tourist. You're just another person getting your fitness in in the morning. And so, right? I too, love that as a travel item.

Marcus Karlsson: 22:09

We I brought my running close to London this summer, and it was incredible for this, for the reason of that, right? You could stop anywhere and just take a detour. You saw things at a fairly fast pace, faster than walking, but it's not as fast as when you're on a bust. So I I

Rick Denton: 22:27

would love to stay here, but there's some more information, like, I want to get more insights out of you before we run out of time here somehow, because I know you've had this exposure across a lot of different companies, and we talked about different silos and how that can be detrimental to customer experience, right? That's an obvious statement. What's not obvious is, okay, how do we break that down? How do we make sure that customer experience is something that is appreciated and used and as a focus point across the entire company, as opposed to, yeah, it's just something that team over there does.

Marcus Karlsson: 23:00

So if we're lucky enough, it's a company's part of the company strategy, and the executives are talking about it at all hands, meetings and so on, and talking writing about it in the annual reports. We can't affect that. So if that's not happening, I've found that we just need to, well, two things. One, we talked about this earlier, right? Trying to attach what we do to financial outcomes. If we can show that we're having an impact on retention by this much, or we are bringing in this much money from new customers, or, you know, existing customers, right? That gets the attention of other teams in the department so they want to be part of what we're doing. And the second thing, if that's just not feasible at the moment, you try to attach yourself to the hot thing that the company's talking about. If they're talking about, I don't know what that could be, but if there's a topic or strategy that the company is focused on, try to attach yourself to that that

Rick Denton: 23:59

you can see it in my face. You can hear it in the pause. That's an interesting twist on it, because tying to ROI Right? There's a lot of us that are out there saying it, and it is certainly a bit of a no brainer, even though it seems like it wasn't a no brainer for many years. But now is absolutely in vogue. And it's not just in vogue. It's the right thing to do. There's a there's a cynicism that could come into just tie it to the next hot thing. Actually, though, as you say it, I don't see it as sort of a calculated thing. It's actually a very wise thing. It's the same reason that a video trends on YouTube. It's somebody that has figured out what is the topic that is relevant to somebody, almost in a way of saying, hey, my customer is the rest of the company, what's important to them, and how can I tie customer experience to what's important to them? Have you seen that sort of trend approach? I realize I may be distilling what you said there in kind of a word, but that trendy approach in practice? Yeah.

Marcus Karlsson: 25:00

I don't know if, I mean, I've seen it, I see it currently, but that's because we're fortunate enough to have the cease we talk about customer centricity, which is so close to what we're doing that we don't even have to, you know, work, to make that connection. It's what we're doing. But I don't know if I've necessarily seen it, where companies themselves have had to attach themselves to certain issues, at least not that I can remember. But

Rick Denton: 25:24

I Well, what I like about that, though, is that, just like you were talking about how Sweden, there's the opportunity, you know, for customer experience, that it's not quite what it is, that just means it's fertile ground, right? Listeners, viewers, this idea of Mark is a guy right here? Well, you know what? There's fertile ground. If there's not a lot of examples out there, go out there and seize that. What is the hot topic in your company right now, and make sure that the CX initiatives that you're working on are tied to that Marcus. I would be remiss if I left this discussion without talking about something that I mentioned in the intro, because I believe may not be sure. I believe you may be my first guest that has Arctic warfare training in your background. I realize that's in the past. It probably doesn't come to mind each day for you, but when you think back to that time, how does that relate and how have you used the lessons of that past in what you do today?

Marcus Karlsson: 26:17

So I think my the biggest lesson that I take with me from that is there's always more energy left. I can always do more, right? So where our training was based on being up by the Arctic. In a worst scenario, we would be behind enemy lines, gathering surveillance on the enemy and doing sabotage, which meant that we did small raids, very small groups, middle night in very cold temperatures, and we only have ourselves and our skis and our backpacks. So I think the number one thing that I take with me from a military experience was that I can always, like I could push myself much harder than I think so when, when I'm tired, if it's late, if there's deadlines, I know that I can push through, yeah, and deliver. Because I'm sitting indoors in a nice office, the lights are on, I

Rick Denton: 27:06

feel different than what you had before, right?

Marcus Karlsson: 27:09

I don't have to heat my own food and, like, freeze dried food, and, you know, minus 30, so life is good compared to what it could be. So I can just suck it up and muster through, really, any, any type of scenario.

Rick Denton: 27:20

Okay, right there. That's exactly the lesson. If you listeners, travelers, viewers, if you heard nothing of customer experience or Sweden talk, right now, learn from that as you're probably you're like me. You listen to podcasts while you're running outside and good weather, or maybe you're sitting at your desk, realize, yeah, you've got more energy than you realize, because it's probably a lot more comfortable than what it could be sitting out in a snowdrift somewhere in a remote forest heating your food over a a hopefully heating your food. I'm sure sometimes you didn't get to do that. So Marcus, I'm glad that we had that opportunity to talk about that. Marcus, I we're running a little bit short on time here. But I wanted to just ask you a general question. You know, consulting is one of those things that gets talked about in general, sometimes in the positive, sometimes in the negative. Those of us, like I've been doing consulting for decades, you're in this space now. What is it about consulting that you truly, deeply enjoy?

Marcus Karlsson: 28:20

So as I've stepped away, not stepped away as I'm not doing consulting anymore, the thing that I really miss is being able to spend dedicate all my time on specific projects, because when you're in a line role in the line organization, you have so many ongoing responsibilities that it's really hard to pivot and focus on a project and be really all in on that project. But when you're a consultant, all you're doing is projects. And so I love and miss being able to, you know, get jump into a project. And that is my whole world. That's all I'm focusing on. There's no other line items that I'm trying to work on with lineable items I'm trying to work on so that's probably the thing. I mean, there's the variety that other people talk about and but it for me, it's dedicating all my efforts on specific projects. There

Rick Denton: 29:13

is something incredibly satisfying about that, and I will attest to that as someone now, I joked that I went into independent consulting so that the only performance appraisal that I ever wrote or received was the invoice that I submit and the payment that I received. So yes, when you talk about the other stuff that comes with and it's very necessary for a company, but that is something that's very satisfying when it comes to that, hey, I'm going to just focus on doing these projects to deliver that tangible business value for the client. Marcus, this has been a treat to get to know you a little bit better, understand your views on customer experience, get a little more knowledge on what it looks like in Sweden. If folks wanted to get to know a little bit more about you, your approach to customer experience, and just connect, what would that look like for you?

Marcus Karlsson: 29:54

Well, I'm happy to connect over LinkedIn. I think that's probably the easiest way to to chat about this. You.

Rick Denton: 30:01

Yeah, awesome. Well, I will get Marcus's link to his LinkedIn, his link to his LinkedIn profile, and scroll down and you will be able to click to that, Marcus, I've really enjoyed this conversation today. Thank you for being on CX passport. Thanks,

Marcus Karlsson: 30:21

Rick, thanks for having me.

Rick Denton: 30:27

Thanks for joining us this week on CX Passport. If you liked today’s episode I have 3 quick next steps for you Click subscribe on the CX Passport youtube channel or your favorite podcast app Next leave a comment below the video or a review in your favorite podcast app so others can find and and enjoy CX Passport too Then, head over to cxpassport.com website for show notes and resources that can help you create tangible business results by delivering great customer experience. Until next time, I’m Rick Denton and I believe the best meals are served outside and require a passport.