👉Love customer experience and love travel? You’ve found the right podcast, a show about creating great customer experience, with a dash of travel talk. 🎤Each episode, we’ll talk with our guests about customer experience, travel, and just like the best journeys, explore new directions we never anticipated. Listen here or watch on YouTube youtube.com/@cxpassport 🗺️CX Passport is a podcast that purposely seeks out global Customer Experience voices to hear what's working well in CX, what are their challenges and to hear their Customer Experience stories. In addition, there's always a dash (or more!) of travel talk in each episode.🧳Hosted by Rick Denton, CX Passport will bring Customer Experience and industry leaders to get their best customer experience insights, stories and hear their tales from the road...whether it’s the one less traveled or the one on everyone’s summer trip list.
I'm Rick Denton and I believe the best meals are served outside and require a passport
Music: Funk In The Trunk by Shane Ivers
CX Passport is a podcast for customer experience professionals that focuses on the stories, strategies, and solutions needed to create and deliver meaningful customer experiences. It features guests from the world of CX, including executives, consultants, and authors, who discuss their own experiences, tips, and insights. The podcast is designed to help CX professionals learn from each other, stay on top of the latest trends, and develop their own strategies for success.
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Irina Mateeva:
I always say there's no customer experience. If there's no one there for your customers,
Rick Denton:
customer experience wisdom, a dash of travel talk, we've been cleared for takeoff. The best meals are served outside and require passport today on CX passport, I am joined by Irina mateva Hollis, a workforce management expert who's built her career on turning complex challenges into streamlined solutions. And get this y'all, we get to add a new country to the CX passport alumni wall Bulgaria, based there, along with ties to the Netherlands, Irina has a decade of experience helping companies improve operations while keeping employees and customers happy. Some of you might be thinking, Now, hang on a second, Rick workforce management, that's not customer experience true, perhaps in the pure sense of getting WFM right or getting it wrong. But if you get WFM right and if you get it wrong, it will have massive impact on what a customer experiences as the founder of right WFM and host of WFM unfiltered, which she shares that practical advice for making workforce management work in the real world, not just on paper. From her time at IKEA to consulting with global brands, she delivers a no nonsense approach to creating systems that drive results without adding that wasted complexity. Let's see impacts to customer experience a new country and a fellow podcaster, yes, I am so glad Irina joins us today. Irina, welcome to CX passport.
Irina Mateeva:
Oh, hey, Rick, thanks for having me, and I'm already super jealous. Oh, my God, what an amazing host. I
Rick Denton:
am so excited about not only having been on your show, because I've re we had a really fun and interesting conversation. I'm confident that today we're going to have a very similar fun and interesting conversation, especially let's talk about that thing that I mentioned in the introduction. I'm actually confident that the CX passport traveler is fully on board with WFM. However, in general, I know that you have been frustrated by how WFM is just often ignored in the customer experience world. Will you tell me more about that?
Irina Mateeva:
Absolutely and I think frustrated doesn't even cover it. I'm absolutely furious about it, and you're right about it. It's not only ignored, it's not recognized. It's not acknowledged. Imagine that you're a customer, and you're going to the store and you want to buy something, and there's no one around to help you. So what? What do you do? You really fancy that product, but you need to ask a question, and there is absolutely no one who can help you. Well, I guess there might be the chances to either you go to a different store or you wait. They waste your time. You're not happy. You're starting to hesitate. Okay, if that is the support that I'm getting, it might be a good idea to go for something else or somewhere else. And this is ultimately what workforce management is resolved. It secures availability for your customers. And I always say there's no customer experience. If there is no one there for your customers, we start there. So there you go, for all the listeners who ignore workforce management, goodbye.
Rick Denton:
Oh, she's firing you. Listener, reviewer, she is going on my show and firing I am I'm truly am confident that the CX passport traveler is savvy enough to know that, and I'm glad that we're getting a chance to talk about this. What you're seeing is so logical to me. Why have you seen this being something that isn't focused on
Irina Mateeva:
working with so many organizations and so many senior stakeholders? I'm just absolutely stunned how majority of them are seen workforce management, and it's not so complicated. We just have opening hours. Someone needs to show up, and it's important the way that we treat the customers. That's what our focus is. How do we make customers happy? But I keep on saying, For me happiness start with someone treating me, somebody being there for me.
Rick Denton:
I There's a very vivid memory that I have, and I won't name and shame the brand. I usually don't do that and riled up, but it was a department store here in the US, and I had my item. I was ready to buy my item. You know, card in hand, item in hand, ready to purchase. I could not find a single person to ring me up at any of the registers, anywhere in the stores, almost as if sitting there thinking, have they already closed? Not only is that, was it a negative experience? I had money. I wanted to give them money, and I couldn't do it. And so there's a direct revenue impact there. This WFM conversation has really sort of two veins to it. There's the customer experience, which you and I are talking about. There's also the employee experience, as you think about WFM affecting both of them. How should companies approach workforce management?
Irina Mateeva:
It's a great question. First of all, and I. I always say that in a lot of organizations, WFM is seen any WFM role is seen more as an administrative role, rather than a strategic role, and that's the big issue and big fail, because then it's in like you just create some, let's say schedule somebody shows up doing something as their salary potentially handles some customers, and that's it. It's so much more than that. It opens the conversation about, How many employees do we have to do? What at what points when they can go to vacation? What happens if they go to vacation? What happens if they get sick? What happens if they go together on a break? What happens if tasks change? How do we manage them? So all of that foundation about budget and how much employees do we need, and what do they need to do once we employ them? The big misunderstanding is that WFM is primarily seen as a function within contact centers, but actually it's a function everywhere, where you have employees that needs to be coming to a certain schedule and that needs to be helping customers, including in hospitals, if you think about it, there is somebody that needs to check you in, that needs to show you where to go, nurses that needs to come with certain shifts somebody prepares those schedules. That's also workforce management. So you know, you don't want to go to a hospital when there are no doctors around,
Your CX Passport Captain:
This is your captain speaking. I want to thank you for listening to CX Passport today. We’ve now reached our cruising altitude so I’ll turn that seatbelt sign off. <ding> While you’re getting comfortable, hit that Follow or Subscribe button in your favorite podcast app so you never miss an episode. I’d love it if you’d tell a friend about CX Passport and leave a review so that others can discover the show as well. Now, sit back and enjoy the rest of the episode.
Rick Denton:
spend a little more time in the employee experience part of this, because I have to imagine that workforce management Well, I know, but I want to hear your thoughts around how it affects that because that idea of the absenteeism, the idea of retention, or being able to even attract talent, I imagine that workforce Management has more of an influence on those areas than perhaps might be sort of viewed as the conventional wisdom. How can workforce management be used as a tool to improve employee experience
Irina Mateeva:
in many, many ways? And again, I'm so happy that you led with that question, because usually the way that many organizations are working is forever. We had those opening hours. We have some employees that want to show up at these hours, and this is how we need to work. But the way that I'm always trying to explain it to people is that every single person affects everyone around them. So for example, if you have legacy contracts, and somebody is always supposed to come here at 830, to five, but you have bunch of late shifts, somebody needs to be scheduled those late shifts, and if your other employees don't like late shifts, then you're ultimately punishing your other employees because of your legacy contracts. So every single person has a domino effect on the other one. So ultimately, if you have time frames during the days when you have a lot of work, but not many people, then they get exhausted, then they get a burnout, then they'll go into a lot of sickness. When they go into sickness, then the effect is going to be on the people that show up. So you see that kind of a snowball effect if you don't create balanced schedule. And you know what I always say, actually, this is one of my guests that said it, but I'm going to take it from him. Life happens outside of the workplace, and we need to acknowledge that people will have personal appointments, they'll have to pick up their child from the daycare, or their child will be sick, they'll have to go to a school rehearsal or whatever. And we need to take all those things into the equation when we're creating our schedules.
Rick Denton:
I love that you said that because it was nursing specifically, that made me think about that. There's such a shortage in that world, and a lot of the reason for that shortage is, you know how well we're building a pipeline of new nurses and through the educational system, is one. The other part is it is not something that tends to have really employee experience focused workforce management. And so it's a really, really hard role. It's a really, really hard job. And that burnout that you're describing life getting in the the way or life just existing, is taking a lot of people out of that profession. And so that idea of workforce management has this direct. Impact on the ability to attract and retain talent to a role, whether it's nursing, whether it's hospitality, whether it's retail. I want to, I want to go beyond just the customer experience lens. I just just workforce management in general. What are companies getting wrong right now with workforce management,
Irina Mateeva:
it starts with the not understanding what the workforce management role means. A lot of companies are using them just to create schedules and not creating strategy around okay. What kind of budget do we need? What kind of system can we get? How can we drive our processes? How can we optimize our processes to cut down the time, for example, to use our employees for something else? You know, all of these are discussions that needs to involve WFM And rarely do. And the other thing is, technology in general, everything that your employees would be using has impact on the way that world schedule them, and almost not a company is involving the WFM team in the strategic decisions and setting these systems up.
Rick Denton:
The theme that I'm extracting from what you said, there is too often companies are viewing workforce management as a function, as a tool to be used, as opposed to a strategic partner to be leveraged in these long vision not visioning, but just these forward looking approaches to business, as opposed to just, hey, can you give me my schedule? That'd be cool. And I think that's something that I'm myself may have under appreciated when I think about a WFM team. Now, Irina, I want to take you on a completely different turn here. It's a question that I guarantee CX passport listeners already know where I'm going with this. Oh, anytime I have a guest from a new country, I especially one that I've never had a chance to go to yet, I would love to know a little bit more what customer experience is like in Bulgaria. What's the the customer's experience? What is, what are the unique expectations of the Bulgarian customer? You
Irina Mateeva:
know, I'm very critical as a Bulgarian. I'm usually and it's not right to do that, but I'm, you know, I demand a lot, you know, and I'm explaining a lot, and I think I'm judging Bulgaria, as a Bulgarian harsher that potentially expats that are coming here. Oh, that's
Rick Denton:
very meta. Bulgarians are very critical, and I, as a Bulgarian, are even more critical about it. So I like that it's very layered.
Irina Mateeva:
My first thought was there's a lot to be desired from the customer experience here in Bulgaria. And then I started thinking that unique thing and is that people are much more approachable, and you can rely on them even outside of their working time. And I'm going to give you example to let you know what, three years ago, I had a lot of issues with the tooth. It literally killed me. It just doesn't matter. I kept on having issues with the same tooth over and over and over and over again. Unfortunately, it happened during Christmas time where my dentist office was closed. And it got worse, I got inflammation. Nothing was working. And yeah, in deep
Rick Denton:
Can I curse here? Can I curse? On your part, I'm going to bleep it out, but you can do whatever the heck you want.
Irina Mateeva:
I wasn't. I was too big. And then the thing that I decided to do naturally is to text my dentist over Facebook at one in the evening because I was freaking out.
Rick Denton:
Oh my gosh, he was very
Irina Mateeva:
like, much more approachable, where, for example, in the Netherlands, not only nobody is going to provide you with their phone number or Facebook or anything, but here, it's not weird that people are going to try to help you out. No matter if it's in their current responsibilities or it's in their personal time, they will try to help you out. You
Rick Denton:
Irina. I like that story, and I like it's interesting how you describe both that there's a very critical nature, like an expectation set, but then also a very giving nature to the element of experience there in Bulgaria. I do hope someday to get there, and for me to get there, it involves a long flight to get over to Bulgaria. And I'm sure you've had, as you traveled the world, some flights that you have wanted to or been able to stop down in the first class lounge. And so I invite you to do that with me today. We'll move quickly here and have a little bit of fun. What is a dream travel location from your past? Um,
Irina Mateeva:
Vietnam. Now, I really, really enjoyed Vietnam. Yeah, it was a great
Rick Denton:
how long ago were you there? Five years ago? Tell me so that memory sticks with you that vividly from five years ago. Tell me a little bit about why. What was it about Vietnam that you loved so much?
Irina Mateeva:
I think it's just the culture, the way that people are. It was something completely unexpected for me. I went there for my mom's 60th birthday, and people were so helpful. When talking about customer experience is just no matter what your request is, people are just polite and welcoming. I
Rick Denton:
had a I was only there for a couple days. I'd like to and it was on a business trip. I'd like to go back what you're describing, though I remember feeling similarly and that kind of warmth and just the vibrancy of the culture, for sure. What is a dream travel location you've not been to yet?
Irina Mateeva:
New Zealand. Yeah, go there a dream. I haven't been there
Rick Denton:
either. And you want to talk about a long flight. About a long flight for both you and for me, right? It's basically a long flight for anybody except for New Zealanders and Australians. Probably, what is a favorite thing of yours to eat?
Irina Mateeva:
Um, oh, you know what? That will be very weird, but I'm crazy about that. The mommy like, I mean, I love sushi, but when I go to a sushi restaurant, I'm full by the time that the sushi could just continue. The momma first,
Rick Denton:
that's awesome, man. Yeah, some good edamame. I haven't had that in a bit. I think I need to go out there and give me a little edamame. But let's go the other way, though, growing up, what was something you were forced to eat but you hated as a kid,
Irina Mateeva:
um, something that I hated eating, and now I completely love, is Neto, my husband, who is Dutch, also didn't know about it and that you can actually eat it. Of course, it needs to be processed. So I brought him to a restaurant in Bulgaria, and I thought him, oh, you know what we're gonna eat, traditional Bulgarian, okay, right? He was like, oh, you know, but I don't know. Isn't it dangerous? Because if you fall into them, you're getting the rashes and it burns and it hurts. Yeah. Don't worry. It's gonna come here. The only thing that you need to do is swallow it very quickly, otherwise your tongue, he's gonna start sweating.
Rick Denton:
This sounds like a great food in his
Irina Mateeva:
face. He was like, I don't want it anymore. Now. It's perfectly safe. It's it's great. You need to boil it and process it, but it's fine. It's great. Well,
Rick Denton:
I can see why that was one you weren't a big fan of as a kid. I'm here, 51 years old, and I'm not sure I'm going to be a fan of it, but I to
Irina Mateeva:
Bulgaria tonight, and we're fixing that mistake. Okay.
Rick Denton:
Well, one of these days I'm going to have to have some nettles for sure. Well, sadly, arena, it is time for us to exit the lounge. What is one travel item not including your phone, not including your passport, that you will not leave home without,
Irina Mateeva:
um, my ID. I'm never leaving my home without my ID.
Rick Denton:
You know what I like about that is the simplicity of that answer. Of course, we need our ID, right? Can we go back to workforce management? And I like to ask this of a lot of guests, because you could have done anything in a career, right? There was a whole set of options ahead of you. What? How did you find yourself focused on workforce management world? What drew you there?
Irina Mateeva:
I wish I could say that this is what I wanted to do, but there isn't a single person that works in WFM who ever imagined or dreamt of working in workforce management. So it was by accident, you know, I just landed the job in planning, and then gradually I started moving into different roles, and I discovered that there is so much more to planning and WFM that even that company was exploring, and I became obsessed. Okay, so you went
Rick Denton:
into planning, how would you define the growth or the differences between those two worlds? Because somebody like me who comes from outside of that world, I don't know that. I know the nuances and the differences there.
Irina Mateeva:
This is a good question. Do you know why? Because in every single company, almost we use different terminology for the same thing. So many people are using workforce management referring only to a tool. I really am it as the cycle, and the cycle is like starting from forecasting, capacity planning, planning intraday or real time management and insights or analytics. So this is your full planning cycle, WFM cycle. So you will see that in some companies called staff planning, resource plan. In resource management. But for me, planning was specifically that part of the cycle that I was only creating schedules. Somebody was doing the forecast, somebody was doing capacity planning, another person was doing the real time. I was only focused on schedules. That
Rick Denton:
really crystallizes it that very helpful for somebody like me from the outside and a listener and a viewer who also is not as familiar with that, that WFM refers to the holistic element of this and planning is a portion, an important portion, a portion of that I mentioned earlier that I wanted to talk about AI and technology, I think I want us to end on talking about that, because it is obviously a very important theme. It's very discussed right now. It's in it not just customer experience and automation and AI and all of that. I'd like to know how you see this affecting workforce management, any any, and especially any stories of companies doing this right technology and workforce management, or, if you're willing, perhaps those that have done it wrong.
Irina Mateeva:
First of all, it will have effect everywhere. And I'm from the people that it's rather critical of the way that AI is being not necessarily marketed, but used by a lot of companies that have no idea what the hell are they talking about, but I am a huge fan of automation, of technology, of AI, and it is already changing the landscape. We're talking about using voice bots, for example, chat bots, sophisticated bots that are taking big chunks of the work that previously agents were doing. And this is fantastic, because if we focus purely on the contact centers, They're notorious for being understaffed, and agents are doing so much stupid tasks that could and should have been automated long time ago for them to focus on the more complex tasks. So this is an example where I'm actually rather excited that we're leveraging technology and getting rid of everything and stripping it down and just focusing on, okay, let's spend more time on analyzing how the process can be better, how the customer journey can be better, any insights that can actually grow our business, rather than let me think if I note down the name of the customer correctly,
Rick Denton:
right? Yeah, right. And I think I want to end there, because what I like about what you're saying there is it's not a replacement for humans when it's up, when it's done, right? It's a way to enhance the humanity that we have that taking down the name, right? Let's let a bot do that. Let's let a something that's listening to the call record those notes much better than than a human might. And instead, let's let the human build that connection. Really understand why is the customer contacting us in the first place? Get those insights, share that insight with the company, and then maybe we do something about that inside the company, so the customer doesn't have to contact us again and create that virtuous cycle of improvement that can come from when you actually do some honest to god extraction of customer insight from your frontline agents. I am going to get off my soapbox, because I could probably start soapboxing for about the next 10 minutes. Arena. It's been a delight if folks wanted to get to know a little bit more about you the podcast, what's the best way for them to learn more about you and your approach?
Irina Mateeva:
They can always shoot me a message on LinkedIn. Irina Matteo, whole lots. They can find me at Irina at right wfm.com and right wfm.com is actually the website of my company. It's WFM consulting company. And of course, they can find the show WFM unfiltered wherever they are listening to their podcasts. Awesome.
Rick Denton:
I will get all the obviously, all that's in the show notes. Y'all just scroll down. Don't hit pause, just scroll down. Click that link, and you will be able to connect with Arena in that way. Arena. Thank you for bringing greater clarity to me as to not only the importance of workforce management, how it's being underutilized, how it's how we can use it in the best way possible to improve customer and employee experience. And also, I really appreciated that sort of tactical definition of it at the end and helping me understand what is a full ecosystem of WFM. I appreciate that. And thank you for exposing me to a new food called nettles that I had not heard of before. What a treat for me today. So Irina, thank you for being on CX passport.
Irina Mateeva:
Thanks for having me.
Rick Denton:
Thanks for joining us this week on CX Passport. If you liked today’s episode I have 3 quick next steps for you Click subscribe on the CX Passport youtube channel or your favorite podcast app Next leave a comment below the video or a review in your favorite podcast app so others can find and and enjoy CX Passport too Then, head over to cxpassport.com website for show notes and resources that can help you create tangible business results by delivering great customer experience. Until next time, I’m Rick Denton and I believe the best meals are served outside and require a passport.
