Tim McCleary: 0:00

We know that high trust cultures are 50% more productive customer experience, wisdom, a dash of travel talk, we've been

Rick Denton: 0:07

cleared for takeoff. The

CX Passport Band: 0:09

best meals are served outside and require a passport.

Rick Denton: 0:13

Today's guest is Tim McCleary. Now, if you care about culture, and I'm not talking about the poster on the wall, kind of culture, but the real, lived experience. He's someone you're going to want to know. Tim is the founder of the involvement practice, a company that doesn't just advise on culture, they activate it. His approach involvement culture is built on trust, ownership and a deep belief that people are at the heart of performance. Before all that, Tim's path went through NBC, Warner Brothers and GE where he helped lead one of the most impactful global rebrands in corporate history, whether behind the camera or in the boardroom, communication has always been the thread, and he's just back from the world experience summit in London. So y'all know we're gonna get some of that global perspective today. Tim, welcome to CX passport. Thanks, Rick, excited to take this journey with you. Tim, where do I find you today? I'm in Charlotte, North Carolina, one of my favorites. Folks who know me know that I spent some time university in the state of North Carolina, Duke fan, Duke University and love Charlotte, beautiful trees, beautiful settings. So I'm jealous of your setting right now, for sure,

Tim McCleary: 1:27

it's pretty nice, great coffee, but we are known for our tree canopy. You're right.

Rick Denton: 1:32

I was thinking looking at your brand history, that I mentioned, communication is that thread through your entire career. We talked about photography at NBC, the global branding at GE culture work today, what have you learned about how powerful communication truly is inside of an organization? Yeah,

Tim McCleary: 1:51

that's a great place to start. Rick, it's it's critical, and it leans into the work we do at the involvement practice. As you mentioned, there's been this, this consistent thread through my career, whether starting as a commercial photographer in Toronto. I'm Canadian and grew up in just outside of Toronto, or continuing that career out in LA I shot fashion and small product, then moved into internal communications and public relations, media relations media relations, and then on up into global brand management with GE. And the thing that is consistent throughout my entire corporate career was this idea that we can communicate to other human beings using a bunch of different mediums, and I was just really motivated to learn how to use them effectively and and how they tied together. And so that led to where I am today, where we use communication at the involvement practice.

Rick Denton: 2:52

I'm curious you said something in there, across all sorts of different mediums. I know a lot of folks, myself included, when we think communication, a lot of times we're thinking verbal or written or that sort of element. But as you were saying that, I was saying, well, photography itself is a communication. Talk to me about how you had those different modes of communication, and how you've woven those together into one consistent theme around communication matters.

Tim McCleary: 3:18

When you talk to people about the careers, often they struggle to find that thread, or we went to university or college to study a specific major, and we find ourselves in a completely different career. I was really fortunate that I first studied Photographic Arts in Toronto and then went on to study PR in Toronto, earned a business degree that these things actually all connect, and I use all those skills today. So obviously, written skills are very important in business, but being able to communicate clearly with our clients, we facilitate experiences, so designing those and communicating those across our team and then out to the client, the visual aspect of how we can capture people's attention and emotions. I feel. Count myself very fortunate that all of these things have kind of built upon one another, and I still use them in my career today. Well, let's talk about that career

Rick Denton: 4:13

part then. And I, actually, I, you heard me chuckle. I'm thinking about my poli sci major. I don't think I'm doing anything with poli sci, other than continuing to talk and expand on themes, the problem with a poli sci major is they teach you how to use a lot of words, and the reality of business needs very few words. And so I'm not sure my major has actually served me well at the in the communication space, but thankfully, you and your experience has the involvement culture. That's the signature approach. That's the bread and butter of what you've got, what there. There are plenty of those kind of culture approaches out there. What makes it different from that traditional approach to building workplace culture? Yeah.

Tim McCleary: 4:54

So where we started actually came out of my last corporate experience, which. Was leading the global rebrand of GE, 311,000 employees in over 100 different countries, 100 different businesses. So you can, you can visualize the complexity of that. Yeah, we were rolling out this major change to simplify GE, and I began to play with this idea of involving employees in that strategy in a very different way back then. This is almost 20 years ago now, GE was very command and control. There was if something new was being launched, it meant it was baked and then pushed out. And smart people in the businesses pulled it down and said, Okay, we've got it right. And I realized that we weren't just rebranding the company, we were actually shifting the culture in a significant way. And I began to use involvement techniques, and found they worked really, really well. They were effective. They moved us quickly, because we were inviting people into the strategy, as opposed to telling them, this is what it is. So it meant that if you're sitting in Italy, and there's something about the strategy that just doesn't quite land in Italy, from where I sat in Fairfield, Connecticut, that we listened to the needed adjustments that had to take place in order to localize the brand effectively. So out of that experience, I thought, well, if we can use involvement techniques in a company as complex as GE. We could do it with companies of equal size or smaller, and we landed 18 years ago, on a methodology we still use to this day, and that's understand own and activate. If we can help people break down and understand a change inside the organization. Help them understand it by being able to ask questions, which often doesn't happen when at the pace that corporations move, we either don't ask them because people are busy, or we're afraid to ask them, right? So giving people a chance to really deeply understand the change, then we move them into that own phase. What's in it? For me? What can I be doing to make this part of my job every day? And that tips into the activation piece, if they can understand it, if they can own it, then they can be ready to activate the change and invite more people to be part of it. And that creates a tipping point, often, inside a culture, inside a company where other people will see how we are responding and behaving, and generally we'll get on board, or they'll self select out, not maybe self selecting right out of the company. So we blend that methodology with our expertise and experience design, which makes what we do quite unique. So we look at what the challenge is. We have a discovery process that we take a client through around their culture to really understand what's going on in the culture, and then we'll design a series of experiences to take a team to start to understand and connect with members of the team in an effective way, building trust, finding ways to collaborate, and all of these things bubble up into involvement culture. We want to teach people inside organizations to involve their people. We know that when we can involve people effectively, productivity goes up, engagement goes up, collaboration goes up. So that's really our our objective when we're brought in to help strengthen a culture.

Rick Denton: 8:21

Hey there, CX Passport travelers. I want to let you know about CX Passport Live. CX Passport Live helps brands amplify their event's impact with the power of live in-person, podcasting. Brands partner with CX Passport Live at their on-site event to help excite attendees, reward high value customers and convert potential customers. Bring a new level of energy and excitement to your event and amplify your brand's impact with CX Passport Live. Learn more at cxpassportlive.com Now back to the show And there's so much of that that I hear in the customer experience world, and there's a lot of overlap there that I want to ask you about here in a second. But there's something that you you triggered in my brain when you talked about the Italy example. And I love one. I love the idea of globalization, right? There's way There are way too many boardroom designed experiences, strategies, tactics that simply don't play out across borders, because, well, guess what? Cultures are different, but there's a balance to be struck there. And if Italy is slightly different, and so is Mexico, and so is Germany. And as we keep going, and then you can keep and get even more further down as we get into divisions or teams or individuals. How do you how do you handle that tension between look, this is really what the corporate strategy is, and the customization aspect of it to make sure that it is appropriate for whatever that is, geographic or corporate

Tim McCleary: 9:57

hierarchy, really great question. Correct the there's, there's something that we have to discern when we're going through a change, and that is the noise that we hear when we are initially implementing the change, which is natural. It's, it's just, oh yeah, saying, you know, I'm not comfortable with this. We've never done it this way before. And what is truly a challenge with the strategy we're implementing, and when we can sift through that and find where those nuggets are that would prevent the strategy from from being localized effectively, then we can hone in on on those things. And that's exactly what we did at GE we said, if this color doesn't work in your market because conveys the wrong thing. Here's another option, if this word, when it's translated into the local language, means something. There's lots of famous stories about there are stepping in that then, then, Fine, let's, let's make an adjustment so that it's localized, but let's keep the core of the strategy. I had an experience a few years back, where a client hired us to go in and work with a team in Houston, Texas, then move on to Florence, Italy, and then on into Singapore. And they were very cautious in when they briefed us and they said, You know what works in Texas, you're going to get into Florence, and it's just not going to land. So be careful about your sense of humor. The Italians are going to want to process what you're saying in English, in Italian, right? They can have these internal conversations. And then the same caution when we went to Singapore. Well, the reality is, people are people, and although there are cultural differences that we're very sensitive to, and we when we do global work, and we do a lot of it. But the reality is, once we got into Florence, as soon as the team warmed up with us, they were laughing with us. So sometimes we can kind of get over our skis a little bit on. Things are so different in these places, and yet, at the end of the day, we're all human beings with the same wants and needs. It's just being sensitive to those local challenges, but celebrating the fact that we're very much alike, what a great actually.

Rick Denton: 12:06

I really love that not caveat, but that challenge to the question of, hey, we be sensitive and yes, be sensitive, but yeah, at the end, we're humans, and we like to laugh, and we care about our families, and we want to do meaningful things at our jobs. I did mention earlier how a lot of what you were talking about reminded me of sort of classic customer experience. Listen to what the customer in this case, was, sort of your internal and then act upon what you hear. You've had, you've seen that intersection. You've seen that intersection of brand. You've seen culture and CX, how they all weave together. What's the risk for companies that just think of branding as graphics, as logo as phrases, but then don't connect it to the actual experience? Yeah,

Tim McCleary: 12:55

yeah. Another very good question. If I rewind the clock a bit back to around 2003 we saw a lot of rebranding happening in big organizations. So we were looking at what successful brands were doing, and there were standouts. We everybody was looking at Starbucks and the notion of the third place everybody was looking to Apple the redesign of their stores and the product and how everything knitted together. And then Nordstrom came up quite a bit as well, because they were exceptional at delivering a good customer experience. What we saw, though, is that brand agencies were really migrating toward the sexy stuff, which is the the look and feel of the brand, right? They wanted those big flagship brands to be part of their portfolio. Lot of focus on on design, less focus on making the brand meaningful inside an organization. And that was really part of the the the opportunity that I saw to start the involvement practice is to lean into what we coined, brand involvement. How do we help people inside an organization connect with the brand in a meaningful way and be able to live it every day? Because the worst possible thing that we can have is we produce this beautiful marketing that positions us in the mind of our target audience, but then they interact with us, and the culture is so different that there's this big gap, right, right? I think people are better at it today. I think it's there's more intent going into representing the brand in an appropriate way that's in alignment with what we're saying out in the market. But it brings up a question for me, and I'd be curious to get your take on this that was it too expensive to continue to invest in CX because we saw we saw things shift. And if we fast forward to today, gone are the days where you go into Starbucks and they mess your drink up. And what did they do? They handed you that little card that was service recovery, and that meant you could get a free drink the next time you came in, or maybe the line was too long, and they apologized, and they gave you one of those cards, Apple without giving it a second thought. Years ago, used to replace your product. So if I was having trouble with my iPhone, no questions asked, they'd give you a new one right down to, you know, our Macbooks, right? Their their knee jerk reaction, that was, let's repair that for you, right? Well, when you're a business owner, it's pretty hard to be without some of these tools

Rick Denton: 15:39

for more, right? You cannot take my laptop away, right? And then

Tim McCleary: 15:44

Nordstrom, that used to be the, you know, we spent a lot of time studying Nordstrom. We we spoke with one of the family members as well. Today, I can walk in not to pick on our our local Nordstrom store in Charlotte, but I'm going to you walk in today, and it's pretty common to see young employees standing behind the counter. They're not out on the floor approaching customers. Sometimes they're even on their phones. That's something you never saw years ago, right? So here's an example of a company that really figured out the customer experience and architected that, and it just doesn't seem to be the same anymore.

Rick Denton: 16:22

You made the interviewer, the interviewee look at that Tim, but you asked that question. And I think to some there's probably deeper than we could get into in just some pithy sort of quotes. But you know, some of the things that come immediately to mind are a mixture of confusing. What customer experience is, assuming that customer experience is the creation of journey maps and the the building of surveys and collecting of input, and that that is what customer experience is, and that then downstream is the the result is, wait. There's no value in that. And so therefore the CFA goes, I don't care about CX because I don't care about that. It doesn't give me any business value. And so I think there's a theme there of forgetting what experience really means, yeah. And I think the other aspect of it is there was such a push to digital during the timeframe that you were talking about, that there was an under emphasis, because there's priorities, right? If I'm a company, I focus on X or Y, but it's very hard to focus on x and y, and so by focusing heavily on my digital experience, great, that's an important part of customer experience. I may have taken my eye off the ball, off of retail experience, because I perceived that in store was no longer relevant to customers. And I think what we're seeing is a bit of a turnaround in that area, especially when I think about Starbucks. Now, I haven't spent a lot of time in the store, but from a branding, from a commercial perspective, just the TV ads, it is clear to me that they are trying to remind people. We want you to think of Starbucks as a store experience, as a lived in person experience, as opposed to a transaction that you get your wake up juice. So perhaps the pendulum is

Tim McCleary: 18:15

swinging back. I agree with you, and Starbucks is a great example. New CEO, he's taking Starbucks back to its roots and getting back to the things that made Starbucks special. Now it's those things are being interpreted in interesting ways. So they went back to the name on the cup. Was the idea the sticker still goes on to describe to the barista what your drink is. They're not putting names on so much anymore. They'll do a happy face or have a nice day. But there's something magical about that, because it's, it's this human connection, human, it's human, and it's, I think it's really important, they're also, they've also realized that they've exploded their menu. There was a study that I looked at that says that there could be 300 million different and that's a real number, 300 different million, 300 million variations of drinks at Starbucks. Now, if you're a barista, that's not going to happen every day, but if you're a barista that's crazy making, and it's they're getting stressed out because of it. So they're, they're going through this menu reduction very, very slowly to get back to core and make the make the experience mean something again, rather than just the drive through or,

Rick Denton: 19:34

oh my gosh, you are, you're, you're about to get me on my soapbox, and I want to talk to you. People want to learn from me right now. They want to learn from Tim, you have described something that is such at the core of what I believe the delivery of actual customer experience is, and it is the the understanding of the outside in of customer. What does customer want and the Inside Out of process and execution. And you can't have great process and execution if there are 300 million variables you. Or your customer doesn't need or want 300 million variables, and your employee can't deliver on that. So your reduction there fits very much in that theme, that elements like process might have been viewed as boring or not as sexy as service design or experience design, when in reality, it's the foundation of it. All right, you've got to get me off my soapbox, because I want to hear from you. You just got back from the world experience the world experience Summit, right in London, correct? Huge global crowd. Did you come away with any international themes or shifts, just like we're talking about now in experience design that stood out to you?

Tim McCleary: 20:36

Yeah, so this was the world experience organizations third summit that took place in London, and it was also part of the first ever London experience week. And what makes this significant is that the experience space, the experience economy, is now bigger than the fashion economy, which is pretty staggering when you think about it. And one of things, Rick, that that I learn every time I'm around this group, it's we all have different ways that we're using experience design. But it doesn't matter, because we all speak the same language, right? There's a pre design phase, there's a pre pre phase and an experience. There's the in the experience itself, and then there's the post. And we're when we're designing really good experiences that make an impact. We're thinking of all three. One of the themes that really leapt out at me was the idea of starting with emotion. And the work I do, obviously, is with corporates and nonprofits and smaller companies, people tend to gravitate very quickly to well, we need to change mindset and we need to change behavior. The reality is, we need to lean into emotion first. Because emotional experiences are memorable, they move to a certain part of our brain. So if we can capture people's imagination and connection through something that is emotional, then we can move them on to behavior and mindset shift. We also lean into that using what I what I've termed the three S's, sight, sound and scent. So these are used in retail experiences, yes, certainly used in something like the sphere in Vegas. We use it to transform spaces and to anchor memories for people when they are going through an experience with us. So the site is about lighting the room in a certain way and being able to change it, to change the mood as we go through a day. Sound is about architecting a piece of music that relaxes our central nervous system, and then the scent piece is about creating calm in a very subtle way. So by combining those three, we can create the kind of experience, the kind of outcome we're looking for our target audience to have.

Rick Denton: 22:58

Tim, you've made me now wish that I had been at that summit. So much of what you're describing requires that sort of physical presence of sight, sound and scent. And that last one, I think, is really not well understood consciously by a customer, but subconsciously, I know there's a particular scent that I still recall. It's no longer this hotel anymore, but from the Intercontinental Hotel in Hong Kong. And that scent, if I ever happen to be around it or something that's similar to it, draws me right back into there. But I'm really glad to hear that the experience design community is really focusing in that area. That's exciting, as we talk about you going from Charlotte to London. At the very least, they've come up with lounges. So it maybe we aren't getting the scent, but maybe we get the space. At least we get somewhere to sit and relax. And I invite you to join me here to relax in the first class lounge. We'll move quickly here. Have a little bit of fun. What is a dream travel location from your past?

Tim McCleary: 23:59

Yeah, from my past would be, I'm gonna go back to Italy again. So Florence, Italy, I've been there a few times on business. It's there's so much to take in, great architecture, great art, the food is amazing, but there's also something special about just sitting watching people, yes, and the way they consume espresso is completely different than we do here in the US. It's like filling up the the gas tank of your car. In the morning, you'll watch people come in, get their shot of espresso, get their shot of carbonated water, knock both back and they're out the door, and they're actually standing, consuming both and then leaving absolutely fascinating to watch that. And of course, I love good coffee, so being able to consume great espresso the way it's meant to be served in a place like Florence is amazing.

Rick Denton: 24:52

That's awesome. Yeah, I guarantee that there's been a couple of those places I was standing at that the barista, for lack of better terms, looking at me like, why are you? Here

Unknown: 25:02

you need to leave.

Rick Denton: 25:05

Tim, what is a dream travel location you've not been to yet?

Tim McCleary: 25:10

I've tracked that. I've been to 31 different countries, which is really only 15% of the world, staggering right when

Rick Denton: 25:16

you start still, it's a pretty significant chunk. Congratulations. Thanks, thanks.

Tim McCleary: 25:20

I still have two continents to conquer, lots of different places I've been to, and some incredible memories. I would say the one of my dream destinations would be Japan. I think the esthetic is incredible there, that the people, the history, the calmness, hopefully we'll be there in the next year or two, on business good, but it's at the top of the list to go and experience.

Rick Denton: 25:45

Well, long time. CX, passport travelers know that Japan has come up quite a few times, and I've had the opportunity to go there. Won't burden them with that again. But yes, Get thee to a Japan area as quickly as possible, because it is a fantastic travel experience Japan. One of the things I remembered so much about it was the food you mentioned Florence and the food as well. What is a favorite thing of yours to eat?

Tim McCleary: 26:11

Yeah, I would probably have to go back to Florence again. I have to eat gluten free, unfortunately. So I can't consume anything but gluten free pasta in the US. That's not great, but I can when I'm in Italy, because they still have ancient grains they're making their wheat from and it doesn't seem to bother me. So a great, great bowl of pasta there, Rick, this is bringing me back to a moment of going into a restaurant that on the outside, it was just a door on a wall. I don't even think there was a sign on it. You had to know the restaurant was there. Former wine cellar. You went downstairs, of course, no windows. It's the best kept secret, and it's the most amazing food I've ever had.

Rick Denton: 26:58

Well, we are not going to reveal where that is, but maybe off camera when we stop recording you, at least let me know where that little secret place is, and so we I can go there next time I'm there. Tim, you mentioned that great apple pie. So this is not in that category. It's the other way. What is something that you were forced to eat growing up, but you hated as a kid?

Tim McCleary: 27:15

Yeah, I mentioned I grew up in Canada, so we have strong British roots. Of course, in Canada, we weren't forced to eat it. I'm the youngest of four, okay, and our family, but it was encouraged that we ate liver and onions, oh yeah, even

Rick Denton: 27:31

coming up. Oh, does it really

Tim McCleary: 27:33

Yes, I can taste that metallic, you know, experience in my mouth. Yeah, not, not a fan.

Rick Denton: 27:43

What is wrong with the generation before us? Can we just say that? I don't know. When I say things like that, I always wonder, what are my kids going to say about my generation, that we just got totally wrong with food but liver and onions, that I just don't get it, I don't understand it. So I'm very much with you, Tim. Tim, we're gonna have to leave the first class lounge. Unfortunately. What is one travel item, not including your phone, not including your passport, that you will not leave home without.

Tim McCleary: 28:09

So Rick, I have to cheat a little bit, and I'll explain why, because now our phones have some of the best cameras on them that they've ever had. And being a photographer, that's really important to me to go to a place and be able to capture video or stills. If I can't bring my phone with me, then it would be the next best thing, which is this Osmo pocket three that I travel with all the time. Small 4k, camera can just slip into your pocket. You can shoot stills and video with it. A lot of the stuff I do online on LinkedIn is shot with that great tool, and it's there's such power in a photograph or in a video to transport us back, and I think that's probably why I became a photographer in the first

Rick Denton: 29:00

place. Tim, you're gonna hate me. I'm still kind of the iPhone guy, but you're right. The camera's gotten so good that it's hard for me to use something else. You mentioned emotions. We also have talked about trust. I want to spend time, and we may close out here, talking about trust, because it's so impactful. It's a major theme in your work. It's a major theme of just humanity. I even heard you're adding a neuroscience element to your team. So what does it mean? And even how to measure trust in real time? And then how does that change how organizations operate?

Tim McCleary: 29:36

So we have, we're very, very fortunate that we've added Dr Paul Zak to our extended team. He's a renowned neuroscientist based in California, and what Paul has done is he's figured out over 20 years how to measure trust in real time, and he can do this by combining a wearable like an Apple Watch. A sport band with the app that he and his team have created called 6s i x, any of your listeners can download it right now, and it's free to use, okay? And what it's doing through he's the expert, so I can't go into a ton of detail. I'm sure I'm going to get it wrong, but what he's doing is he's measuring heart rhythm and extracting using an algorithm to get to an understanding of when oxytocin and dopamine are released into our system, and there's a connection between the release of those chemicals and our experience around trust. So the application of that is for us to do a pre, during and post measure of a team going through an experience with us. Do we see trust building? Do we see it sustaining out the other side? This is stuff that I had no idea existed, that we could do this. And when I met Paul a couple of years ago, through the wxo, through the world experience organization, I said, Paul, where have you been all my life? This ticks a box that I've been trying to tick for a very long time. We can now actually use science to prove it out and show the impact even more than that we can measure during an experience that we're delivering, and if we see trust is waning, we can change in real time to bring it back up again. Wow. Incredibly, power, powerful stuff. And we know that high trust cultures are 50% more productive. So that's the driver behind this. If we can help organizations build a foundation of trust, we can actually help them increase their productivity and help them grow.

Rick Denton: 31:45

I just want to sit on that for a second, like, first, I'm just the Sci Fi of what you described is really cool, duh. And then the idea of using that real time help you understand that from a I get it from a theoretical, a lab kind of perspective, real time in an in a business environment, what does that look like? How does an organization take this out of the lab and into their actual practice? Yeah, so without

Tim McCleary: 32:14

naming client names, we've got a healthcare organization looking at using it to discover stress levels across their teams and being aware of it. The nice thing about it is I can be running the app throughout the day, and I can see when my brain is really lighting up. Dr Zach talks about the fact that our brains don't lie. So if we're doing this measurement, there's no way to game it, the way things can be gamed, the way we used to do it, which would be a post experience. Yeah, certainly. Yeah, right. And so there's a couple of dynamics going on there. One, if, if we've delivered a really good offside experience for you, and you want to see us come back and do it again, you're probably not going to give us low scores, because you want the team that organized it to bring us back, right? People tend to be polite and tell us what they think, unless the food's really bad. But with this kind of measurement steeped in neuroscience, there's no way to game that. We can tell exactly what's going on in your brain. When your brain is lighting up and when you it may be trailing off a bit.

Rick Denton: 33:21

We're gonna leave it right there. That is really, really cool stuff, and it's well shaping the way my brain is thinking about how we can understand trust and then do something with that understanding. Tim, if folks wanted to get to know a little bit more about you, some of the apps you're mentioning, anything your presence and your consulting business. What's the best way for them to get to know more about you?

Tim McCleary: 33:45

Yeah, thanks, Rick. The best place would be to go to the involvement practice.com. On there, you're going to see the type of work we do. Everything on there, all the video, all the photographs, are all original from actual events. There's no stock, so they'll get a sense of what it feels like to work with us. And then also importantly, on that site is a page called Be human, and that's at B dash human dot today. That's a community that we recently launched to help people connect with each other with small ideas that they can implement in their communities. So I would invite your listeners to go and check that out, maybe put an idea up on the human page and see what other people have

Rick Denton: 34:23

shared. Oh, that's cool. I like that already, bringing a little community to this. What a great flavor. Tim, my brain definitely would have been lighting up if I were using this app, because I have been intrigued and taken down paths that I did not anticipate as we woke walk through this conversation, I love that we ended on trust, because I think that is such an important part of just simple humanity. Tim, a great conversation with you today. Thank you for being on CX passport. Thanks, Rick, Thanks for joining us this week on CX Passport. If you liked today’s episode I have 3 quick next steps for you Click subscribe on the CX Passport youtube channel or your favorite podcast app Next leave a comment below the video or a review in your favorite podcast app so others can find and and enjoy CX Passport too Then, head over to cxpassport.com website for show notes and resources that can help you create tangible business results by delivering great customer experience. Until next time, I’m Rick Denton and I believe the best meals are served outside and require a passport.