Rick Denton (00:18)
Hey there, CX Passport listeners. Today's guest is Janneke Drangadvetting, and shout out once again to Michelle Stevens for introducing us. And this means he sent me two guests from Norway. Janneke is a CX leader and a strategist who's worked across both public and private sectors throughout the Nordics. And we'll be talking about those Nordics today. She's been especially focused on digital transformation and how leadership not just structure

drives customer experience. What I love about her perspective is that she's not just talking CX theory like you might study in university. She's bringing hard questions to the table. And we're going to get into some of those hard questions like, should CX teams even exist? She's thinking about what experience really, really means when you strip away those industry buzzwords. Yonica, welcome to CX Passport.

Jannecke (01:14)
Thank you so much Rick for having me.

Rick Denton (01:17)
This is going to be a treat for me and for the listeners and viewers. Let's get right into one of the, one of the saucier things you might've said. I loved that line from you. I don't believe in the CX industry. You've argued, Hey, we're not here to solve our own industry. We're here to solve real customer problems. What does that look like in action?

Jannecke (01:39)
Yes, you're right, Rick. That's one of my messages. I talk a lot about that because I think, you know, we shouldn't be there for ourselves. You shouldn't be allowed, you know, it shouldn't be too much about the conferences, the awards, the titles, the frameworks. It should be really, as you said, about the solving customer problems. I don't think the customers, know,

think too much about CX as a framework. They think about their own jobs that they want to have solved. They think about who could best serve them and how they actually make them feel. And I think that goes the same for executives and leaders. They don't really buy into the CX management concept per se. They want value. They have their legacy to think about the business outcomes they want to have solved.

Rick Denton (02:13)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jannecke (02:31)
And I also find it as a paradox maybe that, you know, customer centric petitioners should all be all about outside in, right? But sometimes it seems like we forget, you know, that we really don't get our hands dirty in really understanding the sort of trade-offs that executives and leaders need to do to succeed.

Rick Denton (02:51)
Well, you saw me react there to the trade-offs. love talking about trade-offs. And I want to ask you a dual question. what have you seen when that happens, but also why? Why do you think those that should be the most positioned to understand their, and air quotes here for those that are just listening, their customers, their internal customers, why do we do such a bad job at that of not understanding those trade-offs?

Jannecke (03:10)
Mmm.

CX is quite a new field. I mean, we do still have people coming straight out of their business schools and with their degrees and knowing all about the theory, but not having really sort of had the practice of, ⁓ you know, going through the traders themselves. I think that's a challenge. I've seen that as myself being a leader in a... ⁓

Rick Denton (03:23)
Mm, yeah.

Jannecke (03:39)
quite complex organizations. And I have consultants or, you know, young, eager employees saying, you know, why don't we just do it this way? And it sounds so easy, right? And I'm like, you know, we need to balance things. We need to, to, to understand the sort of context that we're working in. And sometimes it seems that we forget to do so. So yeah, I think there's lots of brilliant people, and there's lots of really

Rick Denton (03:56)
Mm-hmm.

Jannecke (04:03)
sort of engaged people working in this, you know, in this CX field, so to speak. But sometimes we need to be a bit more humble. And I think that's also one of the findings ⁓ that I did when talking to lots of Nordic leaders, actually, that those that succeed have this element of being humble and always wanting more and always trying to understand the complexity of the issues before, you know, moving forward. And I think that's a great trait.

Rick Denton (04:30)
Ooh,

humility, that's an interesting element to that. There's been a lot of conversations and I don't know that humility is one of those that has come up. So I like that thought. You said context is an important thing to understand. And let's talk about the Nordic area, right? When we think about context, cost can be very high in that region. And that seems to have led to this more aggressive shift toward digital. How are customers there reacting to that shift?

Jannecke (04:34)
Mmm

Mmm. Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Rick Denton (05:00)
to digital and then where does the human experience still belong?

Jannecke (05:04)
Hmm, very good question, Rick. first, you know, aggressive sounds very negative, but I think, I think as long as we manage to focus on value, creating value in everything we do and all the sort of digitalization work as well, then everyone, you know, are willing to try new services and are willing to move on. And I think, yes, in the Nordic countries, we moved quite early, you know, in the dot com age and tried new.

Rick Denton (05:10)
Oops.

Mm-hmm.

Jannecke (05:31)
digital services and everything. I think that the general willingness to adapt is quite high, the digital knowledge is quite high and capabilities in the Nordic countries for sure. But I think it's all about being humble, about trying to understand what creates value when using new services. Super important. And I don't know if you know this about the Nordics, but one of the values that we get is saving time.

Rick Denton (05:41)
Mm-hmm.

Jannecke (06:02)
Super important, right? We treasure sort of being allowed to leave work and leave all, you know, not standing queue or wait in line and whatever. So everything that you can do self-service wise that actually makes it easier for you to do and you do it in your own time, for instance, is creating value for you as a customer or a citizen. And I think that's super important to understand how do we create this value.

Rick Denton (06:26)
that,

said it there and I asked where does human experience fit in there? And you're saying, yeah, as humans, culturally in the Nordics, we just, we value our time. And so get it done for me, get it done for me quickly. have you seen any sort of over index to the digital? Has, has there been examples of where, well, we got a little too digital. Let's bring that human back even in that Nordic space.

Jannecke (07:30)
For sure, and I think we've had experience and maybe sort of ⁓ have raised the understanding of where human fits in the whole equation, right? And I think to give you an example, I I worked in the health tech sector and if you're in an ambulance, right, you want the paramedics to have all your digital integrations there so they have all your records and they can actually talk to the hospital. ⁓

Rick Denton (07:54)
Yeah.

Jannecke (07:58)
in the end of the day when it's really about meeting the doctor and getting the trust and making sure that he's made available. So then digital should be in the background, making it available or making it enabled for you. And I think the same goes for like hospitality. I don't know if you travel and you come into the hotel reception and you want the receptionist to see you, right? And greet you and be there for you, not typing and looking into all the details that need to get there. So of course, it's always...

Rick Denton (08:18)
Mm-hmm, yes.

Jannecke (08:26)
finding the right balance and using the humans to make a difference with judgment, where empathy and all these elements matter.

Rick Denton (08:37)
that paramedic in his ampoule. And I also was smiling about the hospitality one because yes, I just got done traveling the weekend right before we're and I can, I have a very specific memory of stopping off to check into the hotel and it was not the most human experience. The, the paramedic one though, really resonates. Hey, give me the digital, give me to equip that paramedic with what they need as they're rushing you to the hospital and then give me the human when it comes to understanding, communicating the condition and.

developing what that plan looks forward. There's an area in y'all's world that really seems to have done well with digital and, and trust me, folks in the U S are going to hear this and go, huh, really Nordic governments are leading the way when it comes to digital services and experience. And in the U S the idea of a positive public sector experience is just shocking, especially a digital one. Why, why are the Nordics so different? And then, well,

Jannecke (09:29)
Mm-hmm.

Rick Denton (09:33)
What can y'all export to the rest of the world so that we can get it right too?

Jannecke (09:37)
I think there's a lot of things that we still want to improve in Nordics as well in this area, but it's true. It's quite advanced. It's one of the most advanced ⁓ parts of the world, I think, when it really takes the public sector to succeed with using digital services. And I think the key elements here are twofold. It's trust and its connectivity or thinking ecosystem. So trust... ⁓

It's a key point in that citizens actually trust the government and then trust then the data and they trust that actually that the flow of the services are for you to for your benefit, so to speak. So, for instance, we have bank idea to authenticate ourselves that actually works most for most things now. You have Vips as a mobile payment.

that we almost forgotten to use cash because we have this system that works so well. So we can use all these services in a way that works for us. It's all integrated and we all trust that they actually take care of our data, so to speak. And to give you a totally different example,

Rick Denton (10:30)
Ha ha.

Jannecke (10:50)
You know, probably that in the Nordics, at least in Norway, we have ⁓ a state monopoly for liquors and wine, right? So if you want to buy your nice bottle of wine, you need to go to a particular kind of shop. And this is a monopoly. They only want to be allowed to do so. And again, back to trust. So this entity decided that they want ⁓ the citizens of Norway to want these institutions to exist.

Rick Denton (11:19)
Mm-hmm.

Jannecke (11:20)
instead

of being able to find it in any supermarket. So they really worked on their whole experience. And now you go there and you can meet someone in the shop and they have knowledge like a sommelier, right? To give you a recommendation and they really sort of take care of you. And this monopoly actually wins prices when it comes to customer trust and customer satisfaction. So it's really, you know, they've succeeded in...

Rick Denton (11:33)
Huh. Yeah.

Jannecke (11:47)
getting the citizens to want this institution to exist, which is quite impressive. you have, even on the employee side, you have people wanting to work in this institution, Vinmonopola. You have PhDs that actually decided to leave their degree and work in their shops instead, because they really believe in the purpose. So, you know, it's been a win-win in a sense. And it's all about this trust. And then of course you have...

Rick Denton (11:51)
I

Alright!

Jannecke (12:15)
then you have the element of ⁓ working together. So you have all these institutions that actually collaborate like an ecosystem. So for instance, the airport express train, you can have ⁓ the bag tag printed out on the train for any airline, right? Which means that actually, manage to cooperate ⁓ around your journey and around travelers instead of doing it for the individual.

units or entities and all these collaborations actually are there for the citizens or for the customers.

Rick Denton (12:43)
Yeah.

Yeah.

The idea of trust, that's an interesting, like every example that you said there has that weaving of trust, trust between the different airline entities, trust between a train and the airport and the airline trust in that it'll be a good employee experience. I smiled at the thought of a monopoly having a great experience. know, usually we talk about experience as a way to increase your results and all of that, but the, I hear it's that and.

Jannecke (13:09)
Mm-hmm.

Rick Denton (13:16)
Even though I'm not competing against another entity by experience, I'm actually creating something that customers demand. Hey, I want you in my community. I want you to create this store where, you know, there's a lot of, especially in that industry that there can be communities that are resistant to that being there. So that's yeah. So we're talking about all these advancements in digital, which, and ultimately where you are talking about the customer's experience, whether it's labeled in the industry or CX or anything like that, you actually have said,

Jannecke (13:25)
certainly.

For sure. For sure.

Rick Denton (13:46)
that CX isn't that big of a formal function in the Nordic region. There's not a lot of formal CX teams. You've talked about this being a leadership topic, not necessarily a CX topics. How can brands deliver on their customer promise, their brand promise, without a defined CX structure?

Jannecke (14:04)
Well, it's a good question. think, I mean, this is still evolving. I'll say I actually run ⁓ a network of customer centric leaders. Some of them have CX in their titles and have some sort of CX units, but others do not at all. ⁓ You still need to do the alignment work. So there's still a lot of work to do, but it's never going to succeed, at least in my opinion, if you have this as a bolt on strategy or as a separate unit, it's all about the alignment.

Rick Denton (14:17)
Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Jannecke (14:32)
And

then you need to find what works for your organization to secure this alignment. And I'm all in for, I see myself as a strategist, you know, in general, in the sense that this needs to be an integrated part of the business strategy, because otherwise it won't succeed. And I think most of the successful ⁓ leaders in this space, they do this sort of alignment and integration with the strategy and, you know, do the hard work if they have the titles or not.

Rick Denton (15:01)
Right.

Jannecke (15:01)
And then

of course, think it's been at least when I see comparison when it comes to CX ⁓ in the Nordics and globally, the teams are smaller. So it's much more sort of part-time, part-for-all kind of setup, which is demanding for the individuals working on it. But I think it's very good in the way of aligning and integrating this as part of the operating model for the business.

Rick Denton (15:27)
Yeah, that was as you were saying that that was the thought that came to mind is I get the the the the nimbleness. I also get the the aspect of, hey, then it sort of spread out and titles and tribalism and all that stuff doesn't get in the way of no, this is my role, not your role, that sort of thing. That challenge, though, is what came to mind is, is there something unique there or is there something that you've seen be really successful at a company that even though they don't have the formal title, they still care about?

They care about the customer and not just in a soft, empathetic way, but actually we know the customer is where our revenue growth is going to be and experience matters. Without the team, how have you seen that be successful?

Jannecke (16:09)
Well, I think that the challenge is the same without the titles. And it's all about then, again, creating the value and being able to be the ambassador for the customer and get everyone on board to work in the same direction. So I think the challenge is somewhat the same. ⁓ But as you probably, you've spoke to so many people working in this field, Rick. So there's a lot of people really... ⁓

almost like missionaries working around in the organization, trying to get everyone aligned and on board. And I think that's one of the key traits. You need to have the stamina, you need to have the willingness to find ⁓ the right way and also balance things in the context of your own organization. So it's a lot of...

Rick Denton (16:40)
Hahaha

Jannecke (17:00)
know, skills, think quite actually leadership skills in finding a way of navigating and sort of balancing the issues and timing is super important and stamina again. So these are the sort of traits I find for those that really succeed. ⁓ I call them value champions because these are people that, you know, they really want to contribute to creating value in organizations and then try to find a way of doing so.

Rick Denton (17:37)
Yonica, I like the value champions. I like that concept. There's something that is going to sit with me with that one. I have never, and I can't believe this, I have never had the chance to go to Norway. I've been close, Sweden, Finland, some other areas around there, but never to Norway. And I know that if and when I get to go, it's going to be a long flight.

And it's nice to stop down in the first class lounge when that opportunity is there. So I'm going to invite you today to stop down in the first class lounge. We'll move quickly here and have a little bit of fun. What is a dream travel location from your past?

Jannecke (17:56)
You.

Well, you're always welcome to Norway, ⁓ But if, but my favorite travel experience from the past is definitely Italy. I love Italy. And I've been there for several periods, living there as well. I, know, the purple beach in Camogli with the church bell behind me and just watching the stars. I'll tell you, it's just memories that will stick with you for life. So yeah.

Rick Denton (18:12)
I can't wait.

Mmm.

Jannecke (18:38)
That's my favorite.

Rick Denton (18:39)
That sounds absolutely delightful.

And I will say that I'm a little jealous that, well, I know it's not a quick trip, but at least Italy's like a place you could actually pop down to for the weekend. I have to really think about getting there. Now when I'm hearing that Pebble Beach and the church bell, ⁓ I really want to get there. Thinking of that desire for future travel, what is a dream travel location you've not been to yet?

Jannecke (18:50)
You

Yeah.

There are many that I would love to visit, but I think my, I'm eager now to explore ⁓ South Korea. I'm really fascinated by the Hallyu, the South Korean wave going international. And I really want to understand it, not only see how it influences, you know, our cultures, but actually to understand where it comes from. I love what they've done.

Rick Denton (19:10)
Okay.

Jannecke (19:26)
Also professionally, I I love what they've done with the fandoms and with all the developing on the K-pop and K-drama and cosmetics and whatever. It's super impressive. But it's a fascinating culture in the country. I'd love to visit.

Rick Denton (19:31)
yeah.

Absolutely it is.

Yeah, I like, I'm with you there. That would be, would be fascinating. Travel, food, hand in hand. We both know that. What is a favorite thing of yours to eat?

Jannecke (19:51)
Ooh, I think actually then I can come and stay here in Norway. I love hunting and I love eating grouse with the gravy. That's sort of my comfort food. Definitely my favorite.

Rick Denton (20:09)
Boy, and there's something, know, but knowing the source and knowing the freshness of an experience that you're describing can really change how it is. Let's go the other way. What is something you were forced to eat growing up, but you hated as a kid?

Jannecke (20:18)
Mm-hmm.

⁓ I'm not sure if I'm allowed to say this, so it was bakalau. So that's dried and salted cod that we exported all over the world. And I think maybe it's the same like with the wine exports that they kept the table wine and sent away the best wine,

Rick Denton (20:26)
Ha

ha.

Jannecke (20:43)
We had somewhat the same with the fish, that we sent probably the best, exported the best fish and kept the leftovers, so to speak. Because that's changed. think now we appreciate the quality fish as well. So now I really enjoy it.

Rick Denton (20:56)
Yeah, I like that. We're not, we're not giving the world our good stuff. We're going to enjoy it right here at home. I can appreciate that's really, really funny.

Sadly, Yannika, it is time for us to leave the first class lounge. What is one travel item, not including your phone and not including your passport that you will not leave home.

Jannecke (21:14)
Hmm, ⁓ that would have to be the earphones ⁓ or the headphones because I love a soundtrack and the experience needs to have a great soundtrack.

Rick Denton (21:31)
I too love my headphones, Yannika, absolutely. And there is something, like you described that Pebble Beach and the church bell in Italy. Sometimes nature provides a soundtrack. Sometimes you amplify it with your headphones and you're right. Sound really, really, really makes it. I'm thinking truly, right before we were recording this, I had some sound going through the studio to kind of get into that vibe and it is amazing how it can affect that. It's an overall experience, right? And we've been talking a lot about

Jannecke (21:47)
It does.

Mm-hmm.

Rick Denton (21:59)
customer experience as an industry, as a team, as a term, it's been established for a while now. You've called out that the term itself has its limits. Talk to me about what those limits are, because I think those limits are what influences a lot of what we were talking about earlier in the episode, that the term itself is getting stuck. And when should organizations just stop leaning on that term, CX?

Jannecke (22:07)
Mm.

Mm.

Hmm. Well, I think, I think actually, CX is a term is like, training clothings, you know, the training gear, if you don't use it, it's not worth anything. Right. If it doesn't really create action, stop talking about it. So, I've, sometimes actually, you know, called out management teams saying, you know, lipstick on a pig and it's still a pig.

And I think that goes for CX as a term as well. I do believe in customer centricity. do believe in creating value through taking custody of the end-to-end experience for sure. But let's talk about the use the values, use the words that really makes a difference, like value, like customer, like change, and not talk about CX for the sake of CX.

Rick Denton (22:56)
Mm-hmm.

I fully resonate with that, although I've never had it encapsulated as wonderfully as it's basically like going, buying all the fanciest stuff for the gym and never stepping foot in the gym. It's a brilliant, brilliant comparison there. I'm going to ask the question why. So why have we been guilty of that in this world? If financial value is really why businesses, if they're a for-profit business, why they exist?

Jannecke (23:24)
Mm-hmm.

Rick Denton (23:41)
What is it about our discipline, the CX world, has been somewhat unique in that value hasn't been the focus initially?

Jannecke (23:50)
Sure, actually, if we're worse than other industries in a sense that sometimes you get too eager and focus on the sales pitch and the sale more than actually the value you create. We had the same experience with CRM, I think, ⁓ that the idea of CRM was decent as a starting point, but then it ended up being some sort of sales pitch and then you lose it. Of course, we're more vulnerable.

Rick Denton (23:59)
I

great comparison.

Jannecke (24:17)
talking about CX because it's supposedly so close to true customer value. I see that in many organizations. You become too much focused on meeting quarterly numbers and then you sort of forget your principles.

Rick Denton (24:31)
And, and, I love that focusing on quarterly numbers. And a lot of times in the CX where we had numbers that were out of sync with what the business strategies numbers are. ⁓ your CFO may not care about NPS. They just care about the dollars that got brought in. Right. And so that stumbled. Well, that was the past. What about the future? How do you see the future of, and I'm not even talking about the label necessarily, just customer experience, as you even said, customer centricity. What do you see as the future of that in the Nordics?

Jannecke (24:39)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Rick Denton (24:58)
More defined discipline or is this going to just continue to evolve into a wider strategy?

Jannecke (25:04)
think the toolbox will mature, we'll use the elements of the discipline ⁓ better and better, but if it's not an integrated part of the way we do business, it's not going to succeed. So I think it's going to be more mature, more elaborated, but not a separate unit, not a separate ⁓ element. It should be integrated completely. And I think we'll see that. ⁓

Rick Denton (25:07)
Mm-hmm.

Jannecke (25:32)
The whole customer journey around any business is getting super complex. So you need really to step up the game to get all these different pieces to fit together. And that will be a challenge. in some parts, some elements and some tools will be more important than others, but it has to be integrated and has to be a part of how you do business. If not, you will not succeed.

Rick Denton (25:59)
We're ending it right there. It needs to be integrated for success. Absolutely, Yannika. If folks wanted to get to know a little bit more about you and your approach to customer experience, but really the wider just business strategy and understanding, well, how to actually create the results that are integrated from a better experience, what's the best way for them to learn more?

Jannecke (26:19)
or I love to talk to anyone on this topic and it's just to reach out on LinkedIn or go to customerc.no and I'm there.

Rick Denton (26:27)
Awesome. Those will, as y'all know, it'll always be in the show notes there. Yannick, thank you for taking me on this actual like verbal trip for me. We actually, I haven't been in Norway. So getting to really understand even something as you have a public sector that has really good experiences. And just in general, I value hearing someone be willing to say the uncomfortable truths of, you know what? Do we need this label? Are we operating under the right?

vision or should we be focused on actually delivering those tangible results? Yanika, this was a delight for me. I know it was a delight for the listeners as viewers as well. Thank you for being on CX Passport.

Jannecke (27:07)
Thank you so much again Rick and I hope to see you here in Norway anytime.