Rick Denton (00:27)
Hey there, CX Passport listeners. Today we get to welcome Sarah Kynard. Former guest Alyssa Stotz back in episode 235 connected us and it didn't take me long to see why. Sarah founded the Flamingo Project focused on market research and strategy for the architecture, engineering and construction or AEC industry. In addition, Sarah is the president of the SMPS Foundation sitting right at that intersection of marketing, business development and

Well, how clients actually experience the work of the AEC industry. She's really put a strong focus on primary research, especially focusing on what a customer is willing to do with you and how that shape strategy inside an industry still feeling the ripple effects of generational shifts and talent loss after 2009. She talks about client experience in a pretty unique way. Everything from the flush of a toilet,

to the soaring entryway of a symphony hall. I am truly looking forward to this. Sarah, welcome to CX Passport.

Sarah Kinard (01:32)
Thanks Rick, I'm excited to be here to both be myself and represent the SMPS Foundation.

Rick Denton (01:38)
I would want nothing else. I definitely want

you and yourself and the representation of the foundation. Hey, let's talk about that just really unique perspective on customer experience. You pointed out that when it comes to AEC, a customer experiences, well, the results of that in a wide range of ways, like literally from the way a toilet flushes to the beautiful entry of a symphony hall.

How are you helping firms tune into those moments when it's so wide ranging and then design with that kind of awareness?

Sarah Kinard (02:13)
So there's really many client experience points here in the work that AEC does for our clients, as well as for the people who experience the spaces or the services that come out of the work that they do. So I'm going to speak a little more from the practitioner's standpoint, from the AEC practitioners and how they develop client experience for their clients.

Rick Denton (02:30)
Mm.

Sarah Kinard (02:43)
less for the people that experience the spaces. That has been a huge part of the history of design. I mean, it's why we design. So it's a really important part of the work that AEC people do to step back and understand the user in the space. And that is not new to AEC practitioners. What is new is the idea of client experience for their clients and how the whole process

Rick Denton (02:50)
Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Sarah Kinard (03:13)
of design and construction goes for them and the loyalty that's created to different firms through a client experience program.

Rick Denton (03:25)
that makes sense because if you're, could be the client, but if you're the one designing for the client, you need to understand that wide range. So talk about that. If I'm the person that is responsible for an experience that, for those of us that are local to Dallas, we know the Meyerson Symphony Hall is a gorgeous symphony hall here in Dallas, Texas. And exactly that.

What I experience at intermission and what I experience when I'm walking in are both part of that experience. How does one in AEC design for that?

Sarah Kinard (03:51)
That's right.

Well, so for the user, they are designing for the user types, the functions, of course, that they want to have in the space. But remember, there was a whole team in the 90s that was working with IM Pei and the local architecture firm to imagine this, to go through all of the work with the city to understand

Rick Denton (04:12)
Yeah.

Sarah Kinard (04:24)
what the city needed, what the local business is. We were developing the art district at that time.

Rick Denton (04:30)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Kinard (04:31)
And the Meyerson was really at the very beginning of it. So in some ways, it was a huge risk for the city. It was a big risk for the symphony to move from their home at Fair Park, where they had been for a long time, and a giant opportunity for them to be on the world stage through it. So the team that was there ⁓ crafting the future of Dallas and the fabric of Dallas that

Rick Denton (04:44)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Kinard (05:01)
was going to change with this project.

they had a huge weight on them. And that is really, when we're talking about client experience on the marketing and business development side of things for the end client, that's what we're thinking about. It's about risk and the confidence that that risk is really being mitigated throughout the course of a project. So decisions that are defensible, stakeholder aligned,

no surprises at the wrong moment because when you've got high visibility projects or just really important projects too, you know, they don't all have to be the Meyerson.

Rick Denton (05:43)
Right, right. No, even if it's just

an office building, there's people that rely on that office building to deliver the experience they need every single day when they're working at their desk.

Sarah Kinard (05:54)
That's right. And because of some of the generational shifts, one of the things that's critical to understand is that those owners and those teams aren't just buying the outcome anymore. They're buying clarity, foresight, shared accountability, because at the end of the day, they're supposed to get what they're buying. That is table stakes, by the way.

Rick Denton (06:17)
Yeah, I like that. I like that the the purchases about certainty and that makes a that makes a lot of sense to me. I want to you mentioned the generational shift. I want to talk about that because what you're describing and someone that has to handle that type of design that I was mentioning earlier, that's a significant talent. Well, there was this massive talent that I didn't know about, but you helped me understand in that 2009 to 2011 range. And a lot of those folks haven't come back. So how has that talent exit?

Sarah Kinard (06:21)
Yeah.

Rick Denton (06:47)
and the restoration of it shaped employee experience and then, well, from there, the client experience in the AEC world.

Sarah Kinard (06:55)
So that talent gap really created the missing middle for the industry. because they would have been today's mentors, relationship carriers, culture translators. And so the research that the foundation,

put out, that really clearly articulates this challenge that we have because firms feel the loss, not just in technical depth, but in judgment and storytelling and client instincts.

Rick Denton (07:22)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Sarah Kinard (07:28)
You get client instincts through repetition. You get client instincts through making the wrong and the right move on projects. So that's time. So the result is that right now, the younger professionals that are stepping into client facing roles, they're stepping into them faster than we have seen ⁓ in history and often without the benefit of apprenticeship in certain areas of the business.

Rick Denton (07:32)
Sure.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Sarah Kinard (07:54)
We've been very careful with the apprenticeship of the craft of architecture, engineering, and construction, but not necessarily in what historically has been called soft skills.

Rick Denton (08:07)
⁓ tell me more about that. Yeah. huh.

Sarah Kinard (08:08)
but they are essential business skills when you get to

a certain level in your career. So soft skills are things like thinking through this client that is in front of me that is at this really critical stage where we're about to go in front of the community, the business community, it could be the city, it could be the city council,

they are feeling really vulnerable right now. So what are the moves that we make as a business to help them feel confident and comfortable and to have the information that they

Rick Denton (08:31)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Kinard (08:41)
really puts this pressure on the employee experience too, for those that are carrying that mantle within their companies,

They haven't had that lens, and they're stepping into those roles. it's really about firms have to be intentional, more intentional about training on this aspect alongside the craft.

Rick Denton (08:52)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Sarah, that does, it's clear to me because I think about especially in something that feels sort of tangible, like my hands are on the actual results in a lot of the cases in the AEC, that the craft is where the focus is and the soft gets overlooked.

Talk to me about the SMPS Foundation. The president role that you are in now has you right at the center of that, the marketing, the business development. And I imagine also helping that industry be equipped in areas like that. How does the mission of the foundation help feed into some of the concerns that you're describing from before and helping solve some of those concerns?

Sarah Kinard (09:43)
So at its core, SMPS, the Society of Marketing Professional Services exists to help architecture, engineering and construction firms grow intentionally, sustainably and strategically.

professional services are the AEC and the SM and that is the Society of Marketing and Business Development. ⁓ And the foundation's role is specifically to deliver research and insight that help those leaders navigate change. Some of those changes being shifting client expectations, evolving delivery methods, construction delivery and project delivery methods.

new technologies and these generational transitions. So the foundation is here to help and equip those firms with the information they need to stay ahead of the changes that are impacting the business. Because if we don't tend to the business, we can't deliver those phenomenal projects, right? So if you're new to the idea of SNPS,

Rick Denton (10:30)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Sarah Kinard (10:57)
please go take a look at the organization, because we are the translators between the technical people and those for whom need the services. So while some may say, you're marketers, you're business developers, we are translators of and ambassadors, honestly. If you stay in this industry, it's because you love

Rick Denton (11:58)
I feel like Alyssa

again throwback to episode 235 I feel like she said a very similar phrase that This is not the industry for them. I kind of just you know, it's just a job No, it sounds like you really need to be in there and that's great how the foundation set is set up and will certainly have the link of the Foundation in the show notes for folks to learn a little bit more Let's talk about your other side of the world the company that you have founded the flamingo project

Sarah Kinard (12:01)
Yeah.

Rick Denton (12:26)
You have talked about focusing on primary research as where you like to zero in, especially this idea of what is the customer willing to do with you? Tell me a little bit about the Flamingo project and then also tell me how does that idea make that such a powerful data point for AEC firms?

Sarah Kinard (12:45)
So the Flamingo Project, we do market research and strategy for AEC firms that want to grow. Growth can mean lots of things. Growth does not necessarily mean just revenue growth. It doesn't mean headcount growth. It could be margin growth. It could be new project types, new geographies, any kind of growth.

Rick Denton (12:52)
Hmm.

Right.

Hmm.

Sarah Kinard (13:10)
And let's be honest, if we're not growing, we're dying. So I'm always looking for companies who are ready to take on their next challenge, but to do that with data-driven choices. So that is why research is a huge part of what I do. I do both primary and secondary research for the understanding of where clients want to go and

Rick Denton (13:19)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Kinard (13:37)
what's on their minds, the best, best place to get that information is from them. So that's why primary research is, is where I like to go. Right.

Rick Denton (13:45)
Preach, hallelujah.

Trust me, that is one of my biggest, biggest beliefs and a mantra that I will 1000 % support with you is, yeah, you know what, talk to him. Don't guess, talk to him. You've made me happy.

Sarah Kinard (14:03)
We can take a lot of information from the broad stroke moves that we see and trends and things like that. But when we start to really focus in strategically as a company on what we want to do, we need to understand what our client's intent is, you know, and not just opinion.

Rick Denton (14:12)
Right?

Sarah Kinard (14:30)
What is their intent? Do they intend to continue to bring us in on the journey? Opinion, of course, if they don't like us, they're not going to.

Rick Denton (14:31)
Yeah.

Right.

What I like about you saying the intent part of it is

Way back, I had an episode with Katie, who is the head of fan experience for the Orlando Magic. And there's a big difference between like a customer opinion or what they say and then what their intent is and what they do. So you centering in and zeroing in on that, how do you get into the customer's mind on their intent rather than their opinion?

Sarah Kinard (15:06)
So we do that through understanding the difference in client information. most AEC firms rely on satisfaction surveys or anecdotal feedback.

Satisfaction surveys are typically at either mid points, know, phase points in a project or just at the end, not throughout the time. And one of the reasons why Alyssa and I and those in the industry talk about you've got to love this industry is the life cycle of a project can be a decade.

Rick Denton (15:28)
Hmm.

Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah Kinard (15:43)
It's not just

the start and the end that is important. It is all of the in-between. So what we need to focus on, in addition to understanding our position through surveys, satisfaction surveys and anecdotal feedback, is really behavioral willingness. Will the client invite you in early to a project when they are

Rick Denton (16:03)
Mmm.

Sarah Kinard (16:09)
coming up with the idea when they're scoping it, when they are putting together their proforma and their business plan for it. Will they share risk with you? Because by the way, this industry is all about risk. Will they advocate for you internally or not?

Rick Denton (16:22)
Mmm.

Sarah Kinard (16:26)
Will they try a new delivery model with you?

The research that the foundation did really reinforced that shift, ⁓ that clients are choosing partners and not vendors, that the decisions are much more based in trust, ease, and alignment. Because at the end of the day, we all actually do the same thing.

Rick Denton (16:34)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah, thinking about a 10 year build, that is an incredibly long timeframe. And I know that I've had, certainly not 10 years, thank God, but I've had long trips. You've had long trips and it can be nice to stop down in a lounge when you're on a trip like that. So that's what we're gonna do right here. Stop down in the First Glass Lounge. We'll move quickly here and have a little bit of fun. What is a dream travel location from your past?

Sarah Kinard (17:21)
going to hijack your questions because Rick what you didn't know is that Sarah Kynard moonlights on her own self as a travel agent. So I love talking travel but ⁓

Rick Denton (17:23)
⁓

Hey, hey, all right.

Sarah Kinard (17:36)
My dream travel location from the past is definitely different stages of life. have different ones for different reasons, right? So childhood was New Zealand. It was the furthest I had been. It was incredible. We saw really neat things. The accents were awesome.

Rick Denton (17:54)
I love that.

Sarah Kinard (17:55)
⁓

The diversity of experiences we had were great. absolutely loved staying on a sheep farm and floating through a cave with glow worms and seeing the Milford Sound and all of that. That was awesome.

Rick Denton (18:06)
Isn't that cool? Yeah.

That is a wonderful dream travel location in the past. I've never had the chance to go there. So in that vein, what is a dream travel location you've not been to yet?

Sarah Kinard (18:18)
All of them. All of them. It's my favorite part about being a travel agent is I get to craft. I get to draft craft ⁓ trips for people and dream about all of them. So I'm usually just thinking about the next one.

Rick Denton (18:25)
Yeah, sadly I'm aligned with you there.

I like that.

Well, like that. yeah, what's the dream travel trip? It's that next one that's queued up. I like that idea. Well, hopefully the answer to this is not glow worms from the cave, but what is a favorite thing of yours to eat?

Sarah Kinard (18:50)
my favorite thing to eat a soup. It's my favorite food group.

Rick Denton (18:53)
And let's just check here. You aren't influenced by the fact that it was a really chilly 38 degrees this morning here in Texas. No? Okay. It's always soup all the time. I love that. I think you're lion. It's not my daughter's favorite, but she, she's a big soup fan. So I think you're a lion there. What about the other way? What is something you were forced to eat growing up, but you hated as a kid?

⁓ yeah, okay. Yeah.

Sarah Kinard (19:18)
I like them raw. Yep, I

like carrots raw. I don't love that sort of karatini taste that comes out when you cook them.

Rick Denton (19:27)
Oh wait, that's interesting. haven't heard that one. 200 plus episodes. I haven't heard that one and yet I'm here. I'm with you. I'm not a fan of that one.

Sarah Kinard (19:33)
Yeah,

a roasted carrots okay that's, know, with, you know, a roast where it soaks up all those yummy juices and kind of dilutes the carotene taste. That's a very technical, you know, food word carotene taste.

Rick Denton (19:41)
Okay. But still, yeah, no. Give me

the raw carrot, but the cooked, I'm with you there. Sarah, sadly, it is time for us to leave the First Class Lounge. What is one travel item, not including your phone, not including your passport, that you will not leave home without?

Sarah Kinard (20:01)
water bottle. It's with me everywhere I go and upon exiting that lounge we will be filling it up.

Rick Denton (20:03)
Yeah.

Sarah, that is one of the items that actually I, it always goes in my bag. I don't think of that as the one travel item I will not leave home without yet. It really is. Even on this road trip that I was on, I got my water bottle with me and got to make sure that that's with me. I want to ask you about something that you talked about in, when you mentioned the 10 year building, there's a lot in the customer experience world that focuses on the peak end rule where it's peaks within it. And then the last moment,

Sarah Kinard (20:27)
It's.

Rick Denton (20:47)
Well, when you're talking about 10 years, tell me how the peak end rule applies or doesn't apply in a world where the end might be experienced by a completely different set of people that were part of the entire experience of a building that takes 10 years.

Sarah Kinard (21:05)
It's a great question and an important one as you really build out your client experience program because the other thing to remember is this is a team sport. So you may have somebody who is only involved at the front end of figuring out how you're going to pay for it. And then you may have somebody who is the

Rick Denton (21:12)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Kinard (21:34)
program manager for the shell. And then you might have somebody that's the program manager for the interior. It absolutely depends on how you break up this project and all of those stakeholders that are involved that you want to make sure have the best experience you can build for them. So the peak end rule will have different peaks and ends.

Rick Denton (21:42)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Sarah Kinard (22:02)
So mapping out the life of a project for those relationships is important. That's not the full sum of the relationship, though. We know that. However, it's important to think about it in the lifecycle of a project. So you might have someone for whom their end is actually when you put a shovel in the ground. And that is exactly. And so.

Rick Denton (22:13)
Right.

Mm-hmm. That they're out. That's it. Yeah.

Sarah Kinard (22:31)
There are in the life cycle of these projects, many peaks and many ends to consider based on your personas. And so taking that time to map out in such an important, a 10-year project is going to be a landmark project.

Rick Denton (22:41)
Okay.

Yeah. And I mean, when we're talking about that, right? And I know that somebody that say from the airline industry would say, yes, we too have this long journey that it's booking, there's the travel, there's the baggage, the post travel, all of that. It's still different than the 10 year. And I like that idea. We've got many peak ends. We've got all that taking place in there. Well, let's talk about customer experience in general. It's not new to AEC, but Alyssa talked about this. You've talked about this.

that adoption is kind of lagged and even for years it's been lagging other areas. What do you think kept it from taking root in the AEC space when really at its core we're talking about it's a service experience?

Sarah Kinard (23:31)
So the reason why it puzzles people.

that CX did not take true root is because this is a relationship business. because you're going to spend a long time with these people, and you need to be able to trust them.

So why didn't CX take root? Because it was really about good intentions, heroic individuals, rather than systems.

Rick Denton (23:57)
Hmm.

Okay.

Sarah Kinard (23:59)
That's why. And so now what's changed is the pressure in the industry. We have margin pressure. We have talent pressure. We have buyer pressure. And so CX is a way to create a system that is measurable, operational, and tied directly to revenue. And that's why it's gaining traction.

Rick Denton (24:09)
Yeah.

Sarah Kinard (24:22)
Our fabric has changed dramatically over the last 10 years between who's in it, how materials are sourced, where they come from, what the timeline is to procure them.

Rick Denton (24:34)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Kinard (24:42)
And all that impacts design. Because if you need that wind turbine and it takes three years to manufacture and deliver that wind turbine, then that's going to impact the engineer that engineers for the turbine. So there's so many dynamics in play that are international now in a way that they were not.

Rick Denton (24:44)
Yeah.

Yeah.

There's a theme that just hit my ears as you were saying that the three-year turbine that this is sort of slow CX Like it is it is you know how there's slow travel and slow dining and how that is Has gaining kind of the focus of wait take your time and and seep through this well You know what that's kind of what you're describing when it's this long of a experience for everyone involved is recognizing that

A flash in the pan moment of delivery of great experience, whatever that looks like at that moment is not what's needed, but it's this long relationship view that really shapes a lot of the AAC approach to customer experience. Talking about AAC, you mentioned that you have to love it to stay in it. It's not a place for the, it's all right. What originally pulled you

into that space and what's keeping you connected to it.

Sarah Kinard (26:11)
So for those of us that weren't trained on the technical side that automatically we opted in, we usually find ourselves here through a job. You talk to most marketers because that's how I entered. And I was looking for a job. And it was funny that we talked about the Meyerson because my eighth grade research project was on the Meyerson because it had just opened. Yeah. Yeah.

Rick Denton (26:15)
Mm-hmm.

Huh, I didn't know that, that's awesome.

Sarah Kinard (26:36)
because I've always loved architecture. didn't know what I loved. I just loved being in places and feeling those places. And so it was a really natural fit, that first job. And that was when I learned about this world and how it shapes our world and has the power to do really wonderful things for communities and to create opportunity for people in all sorts of different ways.

Rick Denton (26:46)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Sarah Kinard (27:06)
is a giant team sport. There is not one person that can come up with the idea of a project and get it all the way to operation. You have to have so many different talents and backgrounds.

Rick Denton (27:23)
Hmm.

Sarah Kinard (27:26)
It's remarkable. The way this industry generates jobs is insane because it's this giant team sport. One of those job sites has thousands of people employed.

Rick Denton (27:35)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Sarah Kinard (27:42)
It's remarkable. And you need everyone down to someone who has gone to trade school for welding, to someone who has graduated with a master's or some sort of graduate degree in business. You need it all. And that is so fascinating. And so that's why I love it. I love how we, as a team.

Rick Denton (27:58)
Hmm.

Sarah Kinard (28:09)
come together and connect and build something meaningful.

Rick Denton (28:15)
⁓ that's it. We are stopping right there because that is such a beautiful picture of this industry that a lot of folks, think from the outside, don't realize how team oriented and how widely diverse the experiences, the requirements, the skills and everything else that goes into it are. Sarah, I've come to learn a lot today. If folks wanted to get to learn a little bit more about you, the Flamingo Project, the foundation, what's the best place for them to look?

Sarah Kinard (28:40)
If you want to learn about this industry, the community at SMPS is a huge, we are ambassadors of this industry. love it. So please do go and check out smps.org. That is our national organization. If you are interested in having a conversation with me about this industry, then the flamingo project.com. That's where I sit or my LinkedIn.

I love this industry. have made that abundantly clear. And I love finding new ways to talk about it, new ways to help other people understand its importance in our fabric. please, please do reach out. I love talking about it.

Rick Denton (29:23)
That's fantastic. Well, that is fantastic. I've enjoyed

talking to you about it today because of the enjoyment that you have in it. I've certainly have learned a lot. That idea of the length of time is something I didn't appreciate coming into this. And I certainly didn't appreciate the teaming aspect of it and the wide variety that was there. I've learned a lot today, Sarah, and I really appreciate it. Thank you for being on CX Passport.