Rick Denton (00:00)
Today's episode of CX Passport is a little different than they normally are. It's a greatest hits episode and it's one that was a great episode with Anastasia Vladichenska back in episode 94. It's just a greatest hits episode that I never really wanted to put out again. And it's because it's talking about customer experience in war. And the reason why I chose to do a greatest hits episode this week is originally we had a guest scheduled from Israel.

And as many of you know, the conflict in that region is one that is of great concern to those in that region. And she reasonably so asked that we delay the recording of the episode. So certainly I was eager to delay the episode and give her the physical space, the mental space, and certainly being thoughtful and praying for that region to find the peace that it so desperately needs. And I immediately then thought of this episode from Anastasia years ago.

where she did talk about the experience of customer experience during war as she is Ukrainian and speaking of the conflict in that region. And while it pains me to have to release an episode again about war and customer experience, I think it is vital to hear it. And I hope that you listen to this with sensitive ears, prishnive ears.

And raise a good thought for those that are suffering through conflicts and war at this time.

Rick Denton (01:42)
You're listening to CX Passport, the show about creating great customer experiences with a dash of travel talk. Each episode we'll talk with our guests about great CX, travel, and just like the best journeys, explore new directions we never anticipated. I'm your host Rick Dinton. I believe the best meals are served outside and require a passport. Let's get going.

Listeners, I have about 70 different ideas on how to introduce today's guest, Anastasia Vladichanskaya from Kyiv, Ukraine. Do I start with her deep passion for customer experience, launching a customer experience revolution in a country that didn't even have a word in their language for serve? Do I focus on our global experience and insights? Maybe focus on our consulting company. How do I do any of this when the first thing I think of now is, my goodness, you are living in a war.

Not a metaphorical war, a literal war where Anastasia's country was invaded and active military activity continues daily. Why on earth would we talk about customer experience? Yet that's exactly what Anastasia highlights. Even in a war, customer experience matters. I'm shocked, but I can't wait to hear what she has to say about that. If CX matters in a war, then you know it matters to you and your company, hopefully not immersed in global conflict. In parallel with helping individuals fleeing Ukraine with accommodations, jobs and support.

Anastasia is a certified customer experience consultant, founder of Vladachenská Consulting and MBA professor. She helps top tier brands keep their customers through reinventing their employee and customer experience so they can disrupt their industries. Anastasia's customers generate an average of 20 to 30 % more profit after implementing her simple methodology. You will take away key wisdom nuggets today around customer experience.

I have faded but wonderful memories of my one trip to Kyiv back in 1990. Yeah, back in 1990. I know a long time ago, but I still remember it. I remember the beauty of the city, the culture, the people. I'll want to hear more about Ukraine from Anastasia later in the show. Anastasia and I met during one of Jonathan Daniel's CX-centric conversations. I always admired how those purposely brought customer experience people together from across the globe to share their perspectives. Let's continue that today, enjoying learning from a truly global perspective.

and Astaesha, welcome to CX Passport.

Anastasia Vladychynska (04:08)
Thank you, Rick.

Rick Denton (04:11)
I can't believe that I'm starting with this. I just never thought we would do this in a conversation on a podcast of CX Passport. And I'm sure you can't believe we live in a world and you specifically live in a country where this question needs to be asked. With what is tragically happening in Ukraine, does customer experience even matter when you're in the middle of a war?

Anastasia Vladychynska (04:33)
Such a good question. And I actually asked it yesterday. keep asking it. ⁓ My clients were still in Ukraine and operating. Because let me be frank with you, as much as I've always believed in, and I talk more about service as a big award than customer experience or employee experience, right? I've always, as much as the...

because I've been always this huge fan of service, customer experience, employee experience. When the war started, I seriously was afraid to ask my clients, what about client experience? What about employee experience? Because these are, let's be frank, when the war hits, are, you think, these are not the most important things, right? The most important thing is how do you keep your team? How do you get them out of hotspots?

places, hot cities, and you take them somewhere where they can be safe. Or if you are in a shelter, and because many companies in Ukraine are working from bomb shelters today. Okay. my gosh. they're still continuing. That's the thing about Ukrainians. Like, they never stop. Okay. So when you're in a, in a bomb shelter, like, do you think about client experience? Do you even care about how you talk to your clients?

Rick Denton (05:53)
That's why I'm asking. I'm just shocked that we're this conversation. Oh my God.

Anastasia Vladychynska (05:58)
Yeah, you we talk about finding experience all the time on those beautiful conferences, having a glass of champagne and oysters. But you talk about it in the work. And to my huge surprise, my clients were telling me, Anastasia, employee experience is, and let's just put it differently, the culture, the service culture that we have created inside and outside the organization, that is the only thing that is actually helping us to still work.

and sell and continue to operate. And then if you think, why is it happening? Because during a war, then war is a crisis, right? It's a huge crisis, but it is a crisis. a crisis is usually a crash test for everything in your company. Like for all your beautiful speeches, for all your beautiful declared values. It's a crash test. People are either going to stay with you or not. There is no choice.

I mean, there is a choice. There is a choice. Everything becomes black and white. And your employees either stick with you or they just leave because they, know, many CEOs in the beginning of the war, many CEOs could not even tell their employees whether they will be able to pay their salaries or not. Right. So they came up and frankly said that, guys, we don't even know. Like, we know we can keep you this month, but we don't know what's going to happen next month. Okay. And

for many companies, especially those that have had a focus on service, employee service, client service, their employees said, we're going to stay with you no matter what. And we are going to save this company. mean, what? But it wasn't just because they were concentrated on digital customer experience. No, can you feel it's much deeper? It's like, are you value-based or you're not? Even yesterday, there was this...

electronics retailer, I think they have around 10,000 employees in Ukraine. because of electricity outages, many retailers are working now with the help of generators. Sometimes even generators not help. if clients are coming to your store, you're actually using your iPhone as a light to show the products. Can you imagine?

Rick Denton (08:15)
Well, and I saw that you shared that on LinkedIn and I'm just sitting there shocked by this, the spirit of resilience that exists, this example and what you said there really resonates with me. And that is, you know, people let's take ourselves out of the war zone for a second here. yeah. So we had a crisis that was, ⁓ our,

downturn of 3 % or our customers are leaving or something like that. You're talking about the real crisis. You're talking about, can we pay you? Do we exist as a company? Do we exist as a country, right? Does all those things come crashing in together? And it definitely shows those true values. And what I like though, is that you then highlighted how, yeah, it shows their values, but those values had impact in companies that had that and demonstrated that ongoing.

then they retain their employees, they retain their customers, even if they're using an iPhone to go around. How do you think, let's take those lessons out of Ukraine, right? So how do you use these lessons for those of us not in a war zone? How can we quote, war-proof our company by the lessons you're learning?

Anastasia Vladychynska (09:22)
Yeah. I'd say number one, start with improving your culture as SIP. And ⁓ I know culture is a huge word. And what do you mean by culture and all of that? And ⁓ I'm doing lots of research right now for myself, because I want to know how culture really influences people's behaviors. And ⁓ I do believe that customer experience, customer service is born from the culture. And I see it in different, different

the countries and companies. So what I mean by creating a good culture, mean ⁓ creating relationships like real relationships with your employees and clients. Okay. And I know that so many businesses, ⁓ didn't pay attention to the relationships. They pay attention to profits and margins and all of that. Now, in my experience, profits and margins come even better after you pay attention to relationships with employees.

and clients, right? And vendors, by the way, employees, clients, vendors. It's not just employees and clients, right? So ⁓ I had a major insight. So this is surely helpful for anybody in the world. ⁓ If you think about this, if you think, forbid, tomorrow you wake up and you lose everything. You lose your bank account, you lose your house, you lose your friends, you lose everything.

And if you ask yourself what's going to stay, to still stay, okay? And this is a good test to see, do you have a support system in your life, which could be compound of your employees, of your clients and your vendors, who are going to support you and make and like weave this net for you no matter what and become like a trampoline for you to bounce back, okay? Because ⁓ that's what I saw from,

companies in Ukraine, you know, when they lost everything, the ones who could still survive were those who had great relationships with their employees, clients and vendors. Because at that time, you are the same as the vendor, you don't even know when you're going to pay your vendor. So you say, I'm so sorry, can we have your, you know, your services or your products that we have to sell in other stores? And we, by the way, we don't know when we can pay you back. And if you have those relations,

they will give you the products and the goods. If you don't, will say, you know, whatever.

Rick Denton (11:54)
This is your captain speaking. I want to thank you for listening to CX Passport today. We've now reached our cruising altitude, so I'll turn that seatbelt sign off. While you're getting comfortable, hit that follow or subscribe button on your favorite podcast app so you'll never miss an episode. Loved if you'd tell a friend about CX Passport, leave a review so others can discover the show as well. Now, sit back and enjoy the rest of the episode.

I like that focus on relationship and I really like the fact that you brought the vendor into this story. It comes down to relationship that you're describing there as a way of war-proofing that. What is it about maybe Ukrainian businesses or just in general that you're seeing, are they, let me say it differently, how did they create those relationships so that right now in the midst of a war, they're able to continue on in spite of this just tragic war taking place?

How do those relationships get manifested? ⁓

Anastasia Vladychynska (12:52)
That's a very good question. I'd say the relationship as a vendor is manifested, number one, where it is manifested is in the contract you're signing with them. So many times we've all been there as vendors, as partners, when we get a contract and a contract is, it shows like liability, your liability, the supplier's liability, which is like 300 pages. And then the company's liability is just one page. And then they have all the fines, everything. ⁓

I think it starts with the respect, with the mutual respect. So yes, as a company, we want better price from our suppliers and vendors. That's fine. But we, at the same time, we don't want such a good price that the supplier then closes their business just because they gave us such a good price and now they cannot operate. So I'd say that it starts with just with the respect to another person. And you'd be amazed how many people do not have respect to another person.

and believing that we are helping each other and there are so many companies that would not be able to continue their businesses if their suppliers stop supplying. So I think that we are now in the economy when we have to be respectful of the supplier's interests as well, because there are still those companies that even talk to you, even the way of communication is kind of like, you have to prove to us that you're

We can give you the money so that you can supply it to us. Do you know what I mean?

Rick Denton (14:29)
Absolutely do know what you mean there. the, what I'm hearing there is this fundamentally a spirit of respect, right? There's tactile things and there's lawyers and there's things that have to be done. But if you're starting from that spirit of respect and not a, can I win? And I think, you know, especially when times are good, we as humans, we as teams, we as companies tend to forget that the times can be bad. And so there can be this, I'm going to try to get as much as possible. I'm going to win as much as possible as opposed to that relationship and having that relationship.

is how you warproof your company and has been a part of that resilience. I want to go back to talking about some of that resilience, especially it's demonstrated now. talked about the iPhone one, but I'm curious, what are some of those best stories that you know right now in the midst of the war that you're seeing in Ukraine of that business resilience, that customer experience resilience? And why is it that Ukrainian businesses are so resilient? I think some might just fall apart, but for some reason,

We're seeing it keep going there.

Anastasia Vladychynska (15:30)
Yeah, I think the main reason why businesses are so resilient, that would be probably two. So number one is it's very unfair that we are invaded. We have not done anything bad to the other countries. So it's almost like we want to show you that we are going to survive no matter what.

Rick Denton (15:48)
I like that. sort of I'm gonna stick it to you because this was wrong. All right.

Anastasia Vladychynska (15:53)
Exactly, exactly. And you can see so many of my clients are posting pictures of like one CEO yesterday, she posted a picture, she didn't have electricity, so she wasn't able to use her hairdryer. So she gets into the car and she puts on the heating in the car and the ventilation and that's all the way to work. It's like, know, whatever, I'm going to just do this.

Rick Denton (16:12)
my gosh.

Anastasia Vladychynska (16:18)
But also business resilience in Ukraine has been born from the fact that we have never been helped from the government. That's huge. I think that's a huge road over there. So Ukrainian government only was the new president. He made several steps to help businesses. Before that, it was all the pro-Russian government. We never had that. So we never rely on anybody else than on ourselves.

Okay, so that's why we've been always like this. You work, work, you work, you work, and that's how you get what you have and not because somebody will give you any money during COVID. Okay. So I think that the two things, number one, it's very unfair. Even we want to show that we will still survive and there's no way you're invading our businesses and their country. At the same time, we have learned already that everything comes just from your own effort.

Rick Denton (17:07)
Yeah, I like that resilience and I love the idea. mean, I'm sure there are thousands of examples that are as practical as that of, know what, I don't have any electricity so I'm going to dry my hair or whatever that is.

Anastasia Vladychynska (17:20)
Exactly,

and talk about employee experience. Yesterday I was talking to one of our clients. So they have rented a space and they are installing showers so that employees could come and take shower whenever they need. So it's not just one shower like some offices would have one or two. Now they need like many because in your homes you never know if you're going to have water or electricity. So now they're making this. That's employee experience.

Rick Denton (17:47)
I like that. This idea of company and employee sort of relationship working together to get through this absolutely tragic war that's taking place. I want to change kind of the tone a little bit here. And I certainly can't ignore the tragedy that's taking place. But I mentioned that I was there in Keefe back in 1990. And I do. It's been so long. The pictures are actually even kind of fading, if you can believe it.

But I still remember how beautiful that city was. I still remember how friendly the people were that it was just a fascinating place and culture. So I want to just stop down and would you just share a little bit about Kiev or Ukraine as a whole, especially thinking of it through a travel lens.

Anastasia Vladychynska (18:31)
Yeah, I think there is a huge misconception of Ukraine in the world, ⁓ or at least there was before the exposure. Many people think that Ukraine is a super poor country and it had nothing. So when it was invaded, these guys really have nothing to lose. And I would like to, as you just and thank you for bringing this up, because not only it is beautiful, architecturally wise, artsy wise, nature wise.

At the same time, and I'm telling this to everybody, my clients are driving Tesla cars. ⁓ They live in beautiful houses. Businesses are developing super fast because again, as a nation, we know that we have to develop fast. We don't have a choice. ⁓ It is very well developed. Then I teach at the business school in Kiev. You'd be amazed how packed the programs are.

They just even know during the war they're packed because there's this willingness to educate yourself, to move forward and to never stop. Whereas in some other countries with good economies and the countries that never had a war, had a war like years, years, tens of years ago or hundreds of ago, there is some kind of intentment, as I'd say, which is influencing the businesses as well. Businesses have stopped developing in many countries just because you know why.

Rick Denton (20:00)
love hearing that spirit of innovation, that spirit of, you know, well, nothing else is going to happen. So we've got to do it ourselves. I want to ask you a little bit about just traveling around the country. Talk to me about someone, God willing, we will be out of this conflict sooner than later and it will be done. And Ukraine will be a place that people will have the opportunity to go to. Tell me what you would want to tell someone who's traveling to Ukraine. What should they see? What should they expect to experience? What would that be like?

Anastasia Vladychynska (20:30)
I'd say number one, go to different restaurants.

Rick Denton (20:34)
Yay! Alright, you've got my heart now. Food.

Anastasia Vladychynska (20:38)
of food, a variety of food, variety of all kinds of restaurants. And again, remember Ukrainians want the best. So the restaurants like you can get all kinds of interior design that you want. All kinds of, and then Ukrainian friends are very picky. Seriously, very picky. Cause I mean, you have all kinds of restaurants, all kinds of hotels, all kinds of So restaurants, number one, and then service. have to say it.

Rick Denton (20:56)
I like this, okay.

Anastasia Vladychynska (21:06)
20 years ago it wasn't like this, but now service in Ukraine and restaurants is like 10 levels up than in London, for example. Number two, ⁓ as funny as it might sound, but yeah, go and see your dentist in Ukraine. Go and use private medicine. It is so much better than what I see here in the EU and in London as well. So, and then of course, you know, go try Carpathian Mountains, go to the seaside. Yeah, I think that

people would be amazed at how developed Ukraine is right now compared to when you were there.

Rick Denton (21:44)
you

Anastasia, I mentioned New Mexico, I mentioned London, and that's only just a sampling of where you found yourself traveling. I know that travel can wear a person out. So I want to invite you to take a little break here. Let's join me here in the First Class Lounge. We'll move quickly here and hopefully have a little bit of fun. What is a dream travel location from your past?

Anastasia Vladychynska (22:08)
from my past, definitely Thailand.

Rick Denton (22:11)
Ooh, yes, yes, why Thailand?

Anastasia Vladychynska (22:15)
I love the simplicity of life there. You just have your flip flops, your shorts and a t-shirt. You have amazing food, you have smiley people. You have a very interesting service, which is not based on standards. There are almost no standards in customer service over there, but people are so nice and smiley that you forgive them that they don't have any standard and you still love them.

Rick Denton (22:45)
I love Thailand. I like what you said about the simplicity. You don't hear that, but you're right. That simplicity of life there is very wonderful. It's beautiful. It's complex. It's modern. It's not anti-modern or anything. It's just very simple at times. I like that. What is a dream travel location you've not been to yet?

Anastasia Vladychynska (23:03)
MDM for sure.

Rick Denton (23:05)
What about India has you wanting to get there?

Anastasia Vladychynska (23:08)
I'm crazy about all kinds of cultures and again, how culture influences the customer service and the client experience. And I'm just mesmerized by the colors, by the flavors and by the culture. It's just very, very, very vivid to me.

Rick Denton (23:27)
I like that. Now you've mentioned flavors, you've mentioned food, so we're going to go there. What is a favorite thing of yours to eat?

Anastasia Vladychynska (23:35)
okay. So it's just super simple there. Okay. was one of my birthdays. My husband was like, okay, so where would you like me to take you? can pick whatever you can pick, know, Michelin, no Michelin, whatever, can pick whatever. And I sat there and I said, can I still have my favorite mashed potatoes, please?

Rick Denton (24:00)
Comfort food wins the day again. I love asking this question because I guess almost universally go to the comfort food and I love that. Those mashed potatoes, spectacular.

Anastasia Vladychynska (24:10)
been a lot of social, yeah. It's all over there, but your mesh beneath us is the minute. I love it.

Rick Denton (24:12)
sure, sure.

On the other side, what is a thing your parents forced you to eat but you hated as a kid?

Anastasia Vladychynska (24:21)
Okay, there's a certain type of porridge and I don't even know how to say it in English seriously, but it's a certain type of porridge when you're a kid in Eastern Europe, your parents make you eat it and just horrible.

Rick Denton (24:37)
Don't worry about it in English. it in what is it? I will, if I can, I'll put it in the show notes if you want to see what this food is that tortures her. What is one travel item, not including your phone, that you will not leave home without?

Anastasia Vladychynska (24:42)
Is it Mankham?

⁓ air plugs. shoot, can't. Noise is just stresses me out so bad. So bad. Like I cannot even on a train. Yeah. People, please, please, please switch off your phones. Switch off your music. Switch on me, please.

Rick Denton (25:18)
Anastasia, beyond Ukraine conversation, you're well known for speaking truth to customer experience. When, when you and I first talked, you said something that hit my ears in a, in an interesting way. Stop doing CX until you change your company. How should companies use that advice?

Anastasia Vladychynska (25:39)
Okay, that's a tough one. yeah, I'm afraid to be hated by many CX people here on this podcast.

Rick Denton (25:48)
I don't mind having people that say controversial things. Heck, one of the titles was the one with the CX controversy. So fire away. It's all yours.

Anastasia Vladychynska (25:56)
Yeah. So, so many times and I work with big brands and sometimes with smaller brands, but mostly with big and sometimes big brands come up to you and say, Anastasia, we need to change our customer experience. We need to improve our customer experience. a ⁓ quick answer to this would be like, yeah, my goodness, finally, you know, let's do this. Here's the, here's the contract, you know.

The zeroes, zeros and zeros and zeros, Like a big number contract. But at the same time, ⁓ usually customer experience, the result of the customer experience you guys are having right now is a combination or a consequence of everything going on inside the company. Okay. I always say that clients only and frontline people hate calling them frontline. So they're just saying, first line of people.

They only mirror what's inside the organization ⁓ to your clients. So many times a good desire to improve your client experience is just a good desire because the truth there is go back to see, and I always say go back to see what your leaders believe in.

This could be a very frank conversation. Sometimes I recommend this. Go up to your leaders, go up to your top management, your SEO and ask them, what do you believe in terms of our clients and employees? What do you believe? Tell me what you frankly believe in. I know this is not an easy conversation. I know nobody will probably tell you straight away. So it has to be deeper methodology to take out the stuff from them. But so many times when you talk

deeply and you ask deep questions, leaders will tell you, you know what, frankly, like our clients, I believe that our clients are, we have bad clients. Our clients always want to take advantage of us. and it's like, you just don't know our clients, which to that, I always say, here's the truth, guys. From my experience, a company has the kind of clients it deserves. I can repeat it. A company has the kind of clients it deserves.

Rick Denton (28:15)
Like that.

Anastasia Vladychynska (28:17)
I really, okay? And then when a company changes, by the way, when they change from the inside, they change what the top management believes in, ⁓ in respect to their employees and clients. And then they not only change it in their belief system, but they also change it in their actions. And then in everything connected with employee experience and client experience, operationally wise, then miraculously, they happen to have better clients.

Rick Denton (28:45)
Funny how that works, yes.

Anastasia Vladychynska (28:47)
Funny how that is, because I want to be frank, people have a BS meter, right? So employees have a BS meter installed and especially younger employees right now. And then clients the same. We all have a BS meter. We feel and we know and we are just, you know, not treated well, but everything is just a conversation or an answer. So go up to your top management and talk to them. You what do you believe in? So many top managers, leaders will tell me, oh,

These new employees, they don't know a thing. They don't want to stay. If they believe this, you guys will never have a good culture. Okay. So there should be something deeper done. That's why I say, go back to your culture, go back to your values. Okay. And because some companies have like 12, 13, 15 values on their website, not doable at all. And then, uh, Hey, do you have a mission statement? Oh yeah. What is it? Uh, it's on our website.

We have all been there and I don't want to be repeating stuff, which is so much a cliche right now. But I talk about transforming your company to become a truly service company. Sounds weird, but that's exactly what I mean. Are you truly service company to your employees? Do your leaders really believe that that's what you have to be? Or are they only aligned? There is a huge difference between alignment and commitment.

Yes. So that's why, we always start with leadership team and was the culture conversation and values conversation. To me, client experience done without that work, without that huge bad inside work, that's just money, basically.

Rick Denton (30:28)
think I want to end on that, Anastasia. I want to end on that, that, that truth service organization, that idea that values drive this. And I know a lot of that is like you said, lip service, but let's go, let's mentally go back to something you said earlier in the podcast. And we're talking about how the tragic war in Ukraine exposed whether companies actually believe this. so listeners, while I hope that you aren't in the midst of a war torn experience,

But the lesson there that Anastasia just shared of your values will be exposed in the midst of a crisis and your values are what drive fundamentally your approach to employee experience and the delivery of customer experience. Let's end there. What a great conversation today, Anastasia. Thank you for carving out the time in the midst of all you're doing. My heart goes out to you and all of those ⁓ in Ukraine, associate of the Ukraine and I.

pray that this tragedy ends soon. If folks want to get in touch with you, to learn more about you, learn about your customer experience approach, maybe if they have a heart for helping those involved in Ukraine, how can they get in touch with you to learn more?

Anastasia Vladychynska (31:36)
Yeah, I think the best way is to drop a link because my second name is almost not pronounceable and it's hard. So I think that would be the best thing. But yeah, Facebook is the best LinkedIn, And yeah, please do reach out if you have any questions. Some people reach out to me asking how can I help Ukraine? And I'll be more than, you know, happy to share some contacts with you and charity.

Rick Denton (32:03)
So go ahead. will get all those. will get the LinkedIn and a Facebook link put into the show notes. You don't have to look it up. Just scroll down. It's right there. And your name's not that Anastasia Vodichinska. Come on. People can get it right off the scene.

Anastasia Vladychynska (32:15)
Got

it! So yeah, talk to Rick!

Rick Denton (32:19)
That's right. you need come to me first, but no, you can reach directly out to Anastasia. Anastasia, thank you so much for today. I appreciate you carving out the time to talk to me. I learned a ton. My heart is opened and broken a bit hearing the stories, but it's also incredibly encouraged hearing the stories as well. Thank you so much for being on the show.

Anastasia Vladychynska (32:37)
Thank you, Rick.

Rick Denton (32:42)
Thanks for joining us this week on CX Passport. Make sure to visit our website, cxpassport.com, where you can hit subscribe so you'll never miss a show. While you're at it, you can check out the rest of the EX4CX website. If you're looking to get real about customer experience, EX4CX is available to help you increase revenue by starting to listen to your customers and create great experiences for every customer, every time. Thanks for listening to CX Passport and be sure to tune in for our next episode. Until next time,

I'm Rick Denton and I believe the best meals are served outside and require a passport.