Rick Denton: 0:05

You're listening to CX Passport, the show about creating great customer experiences with a dash of travel talk. Each episode will talk with our guests about great CX, travel...and just like the best journeys explore new directions we never anticipated. I'm your host Rick Denton. I believe the best meals are served outside and require a passport. Let's get going. Today I am so pleased to have Brooke Bayer as a guest on CX Passport. Brooke and I work together at a client where we had the opportunity to reshape the in store customer experience. I have found Brooke to be one of the most creative idea generators I've come across. I've learned so much from her approach to Human Design and physical aspects of customer experience. I truly came away from that project with a newfound a deep admiration for design and cx significantly driven by what I learned from Brooke, Brooke. Welcome to cx passport.

Brooke Bayer: 1:08

Thanks for having me, Rick, that is such a nice introduction. I feel like as someone who historically wakes up every morning with imposter syndrome, that might be the nicest thing anyone could say.

Rick Denton: 1:20

Well, I'm sure you've heard it before. And I know you'll hear it again. Many of my conversations around customer experience, it centers around the human aspect of it, right people listening to people talking to people, and it's vital, right? We know that's vitally important. But when you and I work together, you brought another dimension that I really valued that physical that design, and even the human ritual aspect of customer experience. Tell me about your approach to cx in that physical design human ritual space.

Brooke Bayer: 1:48

Yeah, I love this question. Because I think, you know, this is such a trite statement, but in an increasingly digital world. I know I'm like constantly talking about cx in terms of digital tools, digital resources, digital processes, SAS software that helps us be smarter. Like, right now I'm working in the telecom and tech space, so I live and breathe that kind of perspective of thinking about cx daily. But to answer your question a little bit more directly, I think it's more of a POV or a perspective, because I think an approach is a little bit more problems specific or project specific. And I think that my POV has been shaped by the companies I've worked for the people I've learned from, also just like being a human out in the world. And it's, it's more about this idea of like a holistic end to end approach. So you know, fundamentally understanding who your customer is, or who you're you want your customer to be, and agreeing that you're going to meet them where they are. So thinking about all of the details, sensory, I think, like, the biggest one for me, and this is silly, because it feels a little antiquated, but like an Abercrombie and Fitch, like, other than maybe thinking about, I don't know, like half naked men feel like the smell of words is so synonymous with the brand. And that's really interesting, because like, that was just their retail stores and Abercrombie is so much bigger than their retail stores. But that's I think a great example of where like sensory elements really helped to shape a perspective. And an understanding of who a brand is, I think like in terms of other details end to end. Even like Sonic branding is so interesting. It's something that consider it like, you know, whether you're talking about NBC with the wind chimes, or even like, McDonald's, like the data that data I can't sing, but you know what I'm getting,

Rick Denton: 4:03

but we immediately know exactly what you're talking about. Yeah, exactly.

Brooke Bayer: 4:06

And, and I think these things, they're not digital, necessarily. They're like these nuanced details of space and environment and vibe, if we want to kind of go millennial, right? All of that works together to create equity for a brand and to create a persona for a brand and an impression on customers. Right? Um, and I think you touched on this but like service behaviors, I think are really critical and something that a lot of brands, I would say ignore but they don't prioritize. And I think like Nordstrom is a really great example of that, right? That's a little detail but they come around the counter to hand you your bag instead of just pushing it, you know, across and I know like a lot of telecom brands have like certain behaviors that they emphasized with their call center agents that really like define, you know, the way that they help a customer versus the way maybe another Telecom, robot helps the customer. And I think like all of those details at the different touch points where a customer is, those are differentiation points. And like this is where I think there's like a really huge interconnectivity between brand strategy and customer experience. And not every company looks at it that way. But I like to, and I think that it's always about like, what is our value proposition to the customer? Who are we? Why are we different than another company that like, sells the same thing as Yes, simply and provides the same thing to someone. And I think it's those details that like, really make the difference and can make you whether or not you're actually offering greater value, become more loved by customers.

Rick Denton: 5:57

Yeah. And that you'd be a place that a customer would select. And I love the fact that you brought up the sensory aspect of it. There is you mentioned it as being somewhat old school. And yes, actually, what they were having, we read articles about smellivision, back in the 40s, or something in the movie theaters, but even the movie theaters with their generation of popcorn, once were all able to get back to theaters, I think specifically of a popcorn store in a small little town square here in my hometown. And they are absolutely using sensory and they're they're pushing out, there's some lighting, there's some visual associated with it. But that popcorn smell that gets pushed onto the street, it does not matter if you came in absolutely stuffed, you are going to walk in there and you are going to buy some other great flavored popcorn,

Brooke Bayer: 6:39

really, I think it's like nostalgia inducing. It's memory making, I think, you know, again, this is like becoming a little ubiquitous and like, overwrought, but it's true, which is like if you can emotionally resonate with your customers. And I don't mean by like reinforcing language that's like, you know, products that matter, right? throwing those words away, all these other like nonverbal cues that brands can call on to create an emotional impression. I think like that's a really important way to think about cx no matter where you are.

Rick Denton: 7:16

And I think about it kind of that retail space, because we've heard 1000 times that retail is dead. Right? And I think you and I would agree retail isn't dead, boring retail is and yes, I know the quote is so ubiquitous now I struggled to know who was the original quote, I think it was Steve Dennis, but there may be others that are the origin of it. But how do you think retailers can bring that same excitement into their physical space, but then convert it to real customer spending? It's great if you've got an exciting experience, but ultimately, you need the customer to open their wallet. How do you see that manifesting?

Brooke Bayer: 7:54

In the last part of that question is the most interesting part of that question. Right? It's like, right, well, we still need to make money, right? Um, the timing of you asking me this is pretty funny, because I was taking a nature walk this past weekend with my boyfriend. And we got into a very heated argument about the future of retail, which tells you a lot about how cool I am

Rick Denton: 8:16

most couples have this discussion on their walks, yes.

Brooke Bayer: 8:19

Because he was just kind of saying, like, retails dead. And I was saying no, like gold boring retail. No, I didn't say it like that. But But I think, you know, I think the statement that RETAIL IS DEAD ignores some very meaningful nuances and realities, that there's people that live in urban environments, there's folks that live in rural environments, there is a difference in access to products and goods and services. A difference in shopping preferences, both like culturally and even, not culturally, just personally, like, as a, you know, an individual, which I guess it's important to note to separate that from the culture you're raised in is probably impossible. I think Sure. Like, of course, everyone values efficiency and convenience, right. That's why Amazon is king. But I do think that like it goes without saying there are products that do not work sight, unseen and purchased online. And it's not like there's a handful of products like that there are so many things that you benefit from experiencing tinkering with exploring before feeling confident to committing to purchase and I know, you know, Rick, we weren't in the kind of like entertainment and electronic space. That's a great example like, you might benefit from checking out the surround sound and the bass before you buy a 700 $1,000 right commitment when there's multiple options on the market. But I think there's just a really big opportunity. And I know I'm not the first person to say this, this isn't totally revolutionary, but for retail to continue to lean into experiential, and to be really more interconnected with digital and I think that that's where the like money making, you know, has its its niche. I think pre pandemic, we were seeing some really cool things happening with these kind of like showrooms stores. Yeah. I mean, I know now, like going into public places is a little bit on hold. And, and I don't know, it'll be interesting to see know, coming out of COVID what that's gonna look like and how things will change it. It makes me wonder if there might even be this return to a kind of 1950s esque White Glove service a more like democratized personal shopping offering. Okay. Um, and I'm seeing it, I'm seeing it in Philadelphia at like little mom and pop and, you know, independently owned boutiques, I think that there's understandable backlash and a level of uncomfortableness with big box retailers and and brands. And it's creating this really cool opportunity for independent neighborhood retailers to have a brick and mortar space that residents and locals like really want to support. But I do think that there's going to need to be some sort of, for lack of a better term, like a come to Jesus between retail and real estate. Because it seems like real estate cost or rental costs are ultimately what's making it so prohibitive, as you know, right? for retail to exist, as it traditionally has. So I think it's going to be like, I don't know, are we going to see more shared spaces, there's this amazing thing in Philadelphia called the buck building. And I'm sure other countries and cities have similar spaces where it's, you know, a once vocational high school that was dormant for many years, it's been converted into this thriving center of commerce, where lots of retailers are sharing space under one roof, because it's smaller, and the rent is lower. But it's allowing people to have those human interactions that I think we all innately crave, test out products, learn more about the makers and the products. I'm kind of all over the place here. But this is something I think about a lot. I agree with you i don't think retail is dead, I think boring retail is

Rick Denton: 12:44

well. And I think you brought up something really important. And that is, there may be sort of the strive or thrive or desire on the customer base for authenticity. And some of those individual independent stores have an opportunity to use experience as a way to the product may be the same, I think, perhaps is a bad example. But no, there's actually there's a bookseller in Dallas, that is absolutely about the experience. And yes, I could buy the exact same product on Amazon and possibly have it faster than even driving to the store and back. But it's the experience of going into that bookseller or pick a retail clothing or electronics as you describe experiencing it. Really, I think there's demand that's driven, just by having that experience, but when the demand didn't even exist before. So I like that that description of your saying of, hey, the independent may really have a chance here.

Brooke Bayer: 13:40

I like said authenticity, I think, you know, I think we're seeing this more and more. It's almost like life imitating art or politics and culture all kind of reflecting one another. But this idea that more and more folks, and I don't have the data to back this up. This feels like me just taking the temperature and the pulse of like the Zeitgeist right now. But more and more folks with increasing purchasing power. So whether it's like millennials, or even like the next younger generation, are really purpose led in their decision making with what they're buying. And I think that's another way of thinking about authenticity is purpose driven spending. So yeah, I think I think that's an interesting nuance when it comes to what the future of retail is going to look like and supporting. Like, here's a great example. I think, you know, coming out of this year with the kind of racial injustice awakening that happened in this country. A lot of folks wanted to buy a series of books, because a lot of white folks wanted to buy a series of books to better educate themselves on the black experience. And it felt like a no brainer that I should buy those books from a black bookseller you In Philadelphia, so that I was like really putting my money where my intent was. Okay. Yeah, that makes that makes sense. Yeah. And it's like, Sure, I could have bought those books on Amazon. But like, Amazon doesn't need that money for that purchase. And the, you know, the purpose behind me wanting to educate myself in that space, felt inextricably tied to like how I made the purchase.

Unknown: 15:24

Yeah, no, that that makes a lot of sense. And that hunt for authenticity, beat in our retail shopping, being in in our cultural awareness and eliminating our own ignorance through striving to educate ourselves through authenticity is so important. And you know, another area where I see a lot of that seeking for authenticity. Now can go both ways. But as in travel, right, you can, you can travel, and I've done both, there's the resorting style, there's the authentic style, but I know you've had the chance to do quite a bit of traveling, you've had some some interesting experiences out there. Tell me about them.

Brooke Bayer: 16:03

Yeah, I've been really fortunate not only to travel as a student to travel for, like, you know, pleasure, leisure, but also for work. And I will never forget this. This is probably seven or eight years ago at this point. But I worked under this amazing leader named Randall stone, I'm just gonna give him a shout out. Hey, Randall. All right. Yeah, Randall, he's awesome, you should interview him. Um, really impressed upon me and everyone, we worked with this kind of idea that you really should take advantage of business travel, if you can, that it's obviously without goes without saying it's critically important to show up and be professional and do the work and do a great job. But that you're a fool. If you're missing out on the opportunity that travel for work is affording you that you don't know stay through the weekend and explore that cool city or, you know, go out with the client after the meeting and find a cool restaurant and order food you've never had in a city where you don't speak the language maybe right? Um, and I really took that to heart because I think especially when you work in a culture of, you know, burning the midnight oil, and you're really passionate about what you do. It's easy to wake up at the end of the week to wake up on Friday morning and be like, wow, another week went by. So I think travel is really important. And I think like a great example for me was maybe five or six years ago, I was consulting with an airline in Mexico City. Just like a really cool trip. Like I don't speak much Spanish I had been to Mexico, But to your point earlier, like I had been there. for leisure, I've been to the Yucatan Peninsula, like done the can Kuhn thing I had been to Playa Del Carmen, I had gone like a proper millennial to to loom with my boyfriend and stayed at an eco hotel with no electricity, but I hadn't really explored any kind of like urban aspects of Mexico, right. Um, so I went there for work, and then I stayed by myself for the weekend. And it was, to this day, it's the coolest travel story and experience I've ever had, it was the first time I traveled by myself, it was a really cool way to experience a city dining alone was a little lonely until I got used to it. But I found that people just like so warm, so welcoming. The food was incredible. I just like ate my way through Mexico City. Ever and, and I hope to share it like I hope to go back there and share it with my boyfriend, but seeing it on my own was like really meaningful. And I'm really grateful that to have had that experience.

Rick Denton: 19:03

I love that I love that, you know, leveraging those business opportunities into something personal to expand your horizons, the chance to experience a different culture, the diversity of that experience. And yes, I to use food as my way to explore new places. I have eaten and on business trips, eat and things that I never would have eaten. And yes, there are parts of animals that I probably would have never eaten as well. And so it's a but that diversity of experience has helped me grow and it's helped me understand different cultures. And so I love that opportunity.

Brooke Bayer: 19:36

Yeah, I think food is kind of the center of my life. So it makes sense that that's also my kind of perspective on on how to travel is is food oriented.

Rick Denton: 19:55

Let's keep the travel theme going here. Join me in the first class lounge. Let's grab a bite. A beverage and let's have some fun. What is a dream travel location from your past?

Brooke Bayer: 20:05

Paris I lived there as a student. Sounds like a little cliche but it is the most magical city on the planet. And if I could afford to have a second home I would keep one in Paris.

Rick Denton: 20:17

What a beautiful city It's been too long for me as well but great place a dream travel location you've not been to yet.

Brooke Bayer: 20:24

Tokyo I am dying to go to Japan. Love the food loved the Japanese design ethos culture, and I just need to save up to buy a plane ticket to go.

Rick Denton: 20:38

Brilliant. I love that favorite thing to eat.

Brooke Bayer: 20:42

That is the easiest question for me to answer pasta. I don't know if you or anyone listening to this has been watching Stanley Tucci the CNN show where it's like searching for Italy. I have been salivating watching it because basically every episode he's just eating really amazing pasta. And yeah, I wake up in the morning and like if you gave me a bowl of catchy Pepe, I would house it. I I think pasta is the most versatile, tasty, amazing food on the planet Earth.

Rick Denton: 21:17

I think that may be why you introduced me to eataly when we were in Boston together. And it is a it is a an experience that I've shared with others as well. So on the flip side, what is the thing your parents forced you to eat, but you hate it as a kid?

Brooke Bayer: 21:32

So my parents are like, not regular parents. They're cool parents. They did not force me to eat anything. Um, I know. So as a result, I am an adult who is terrified of lunch meat.

Rick Denton: 21:47

Interesting. Now, what if I combined lunch meat with pasta?

Brooke Bayer: 21:53

Okay, so this is what's weird is I love a cured meat. Like give me a pursuit. Give me a salumi. I'm here for it. You want a little pancetta and your pasta? chefs kiss? Yes. But like Bologna Oh, well damn turkey cold cuts. I'm running in the other direction. They are terrifying.

Rick Denton: 22:14

How funny. Well, we will avoid that for you. And future travels. What is one travel item you will not leave home without?

Brooke Bayer: 22:22

This is very not glamorous. But my answer is Aqua for. Um, yeah, it's great for chapped lips. It's fantastic. If you accidentally have a little scratch or cut, it's great if your feet are feeling a little callous from a long day of sightseeing. And there is truly nothing worse than dry lips after a long flight.

Rick Denton: 22:53

Earlier we talked about where you've traveled and the diversity of experiences that that that travel created. And I think about diversity and customer experience quite a lot. If a company doesn't reflect the diversity of its customer base, are they at a disadvantage when trying to understand their customer?

Brooke Bayer: 23:11

No doubt. I'm working right now actually on a team where I'm our inclusive design chair. And it has become so clear clearer than ever. That as a cisgender, able bodied white passing college educated woman, I have a ton of blind spots. So I am constantly reaching out to other folks within the company that don't look like me and don't have my experience to get their perspective, as we're looking to design, you know, products and services for folks who might have disabilities, or might have a different educational background than me to read the same copy. And that's just me, but I think you know, for designing products and services for everyone, they need to then be designed by designers who reflect everyone, right and impacted by stakeholders and decision makers that reflect everyone. Um, so I do think that like as a brand, you have way more credibility when you don't just have a segmentation report. You understand personas of your customer, like that's very important, but I think you have more credibility and ultimately, more success. If you've built the perspective of your customer into your own DNA,

Rick Denton: 24:43

yeah. Right. And we've seen that, you know, there's a lot of chatter of that not just in company and cx space. We see that even in discussions around AI, and how if we don't have a diversity of folks that are creating the technology Behind AI, how can the AI itself actually reflect that diversity? Are there inherent biases being put in there. And so if your team doesn't reflect the diversity of your customer base, there's a real, real risk that you won't then understand and appreciate the experiences of your wide customer diversity base. So taking that how can companies move beyond just that cliche checkbox approach to diversity and actually move to a world where they authentically reflect and represent their customers spectrum?

Brooke Bayer: 25:30

Yeah, I think about representation a lot, that there just plainly needs to be more diversity at leadership levels. So that there's a model for a greater diversity of folks at Junior levels. And I think, when that happens, that there's kind of this like, natural nurturing, that creates a more diverse organization, I worked at companies where there were zero models of women in healthy relationships with partners and children at senior levels. And it made me feel like that wasn't possible and not going to happen at that company, which made me look outward, and leave. Right. And, you know, that's sad. That's a sad reality. And I think if companies can work to create more models of diversity, that inspire more junior employees to stay, to stay with the company to grow with your company, um, I think like that has kind of a lighthouse effect that allows the company to kind of authentically, as you put it, reflect and represent a greater diversity of people.

Rick Denton: 26:57

Yeah, I like that. Because that makes a lot of sense. If I'm, if I'm someone who's in a company, and I look to that career path to that leadership, and I don't see anything that reflects that anything that looks like me, it seems to be a very natural reaction that well, that's not a path for me. And, you know, in some cases, that means that there's not the the opportunity available, that individual or that individual, like you said, self selects out of the company, and the company loses access to that wonderful spectrum of experiences and the ability to understand

Brooke Bayer: 27:29

Yeah, we we talk about, or I think we hear about representation a lot in the media, and a lot about, like, children and learning what's possible, but I think, what I don't hear a lot about, and it's equally true, or also maybe also true, is that representation matters in the workplace. And not just for children, but for, you know, young professionals. And, yeah,

Rick Denton: 27:58

that's great. I love it. I love we were all over the map. And that's exactly Well, honestly, that's how travel is right. So if if cx passport weaves together customer experience and travel, and some of the best travel experiences, we don't know where we're gonna end up this felt like that. And I love it. I love that. I love the perspective that you brought from the beginning of really considering all the aspects of a customer's interaction with the brand, or with the retail space or with the company, whatever that looks like to really be mindful about those multiple areas that aren't just as simplistic as what is the product and what are the benefits but rather the sensory, the human, the ritual, love it. Absolutely love every bit of it definitely agree with you when it comes to leveraging business travel to create great personal experiences. And add that to your suite of knowledge about the world. And then love where we closed understanding the value of not checkbox diversity, but rather authentic reflection and representation of what a customer base and what an employee base and a company is and how we can model that through leadership and the like. It's been fantastic talking with you, Brooke. I've enjoyed every bit of it. I wish you the best. I hope that you avoid all lunch meats, and find your day filled with pasta throughout the rest of today and the rest of the week.

Brooke Bayer: 29:23

Rick, this was great. Thanks so much. Good talking to you. As always.

Rick Denton: 29:31

Thanks for joining us this week on CX Passport. Make sure to visit our website cxpassport.com where you can hit subscribe so you'll never miss a show. While you're at it, you can check out the rest of the EX4CX website. If you're looking to get real about customer experience. EX4CX is available to help you increase revenue by starting to listen to your customers and create great experiences for every customer every time. Thanks for listening to CX Passport and be sure to tune in for our next episode. Until next time, I'm Rick Denton and I believe the best meals are served outside and require a passport.