Rick Denton: 0:05

You're listening to CX Passport, the show about creating great customer experiences with a dash of travel talk. Each episode will talk with our guests about great cx, travel...And just like the best journeys explore new directions we never anticipated. I'm your host Rick Denton. I believe the best meals are served outside and require a passport. Let's get going. Today you're in for a treat, as we will be talking with Josh Ramsey, Josh adad extraordinare also recently founded prosper hotels, helping hotels understand and optimize the revenue approach. Prior to that, Josh comes from a background in hospitality and customer centricity. I have found Josh to be one of the more employee centric people I've met, and I'm looking forward to him sharing his wisdom in that space today. I often find my conversations with Josh taking me to places I never anticipated sometimes with mind bending concepts that really get you thinking, I think you'll find this conversational journey, a fascinating one. Josh, welcome to cx passeport.

Josh Ramsey: 1:13

Thanks for having me.

Rick Denton: 1:14

Let's start with an intriguing mission, you've stated to help every executive operate from a place of love, not a place of fear. What do you mean by this?

Josh Ramsey: 1:24

Yeah, I think a great place to start is the brain, right? So you've got the amygdala, like that's at the base of your brain, and then you've got this prefrontal cortex. And a lot of times we are, we're constantly on alert, right, we're looking for where's the tiger hiding behind the bushes. And this is from, you know, so many years of evolution. And because of that, right, we're paying attention to the negative a lot, and then negative things stick to our brain a lot easier than the positive things, okay. And so, when the negative things, this is also the parasympathetic and the sympathetic nervous, nervous system, right, but so when, when the negative things happen, or the alerts come that amygdala, like kicks in and hijacks your brain, and so you end up operating out of this place of fear, and you make poor decisions, you are in this scarcity mindset. And so I've, I've just learned from my own life, right? That, that, that that flows into everything. And so I want to operate from that place of love, not the place of fear, this place of like being in a state of flow, being mindful, being aware of what's going on around me, and being okay with the things exactly as they are, instead of wishing for them all to be different. So So for me, I think that that fear based mindset often like creeps in to our organizations very easily, right? You have a nervous leader, that that then the nerves start to translate to each of their people, and that it just becomes more and more dysfunctional, because everyone's trying to take care of that, of the fears that that executive has, okay. And so, so I see it as we all need to learn to love ourselves and be comfortable in our own skin, be comfortable with our own, you know, quirks and idiosyncrasies. So that we're not pushing our fear onto other people, and then getting them to operate in that place of fear.

Rick Denton: 3:55

Interesting, interesting. Now, I told folks that there would be some mind bending here and I've already had my mind. The beginnings of a pretzel are already starting here. But I do like the idea, right, the rise above the evolution rise and focus into that love And so thinking about that, from that perspective of love and not from a perspective of fear, you'd expect to see a great employee experience. It's it's cliche at this point, I get it, but to say that you can't deliver better customer experience than what you provide an employee experience yet it's still a problem for companies. How have you helped companies teams individuals realize that truth?

Josh Ramsey: 4:31

Yeah, so you know that I think everyone has these core needs of being seen and feeling safe, right? So providing love, safety and belonging to people creates that environment then for people to thrive. So this all kind of for me goes back to I started my career as a pastor and learning right, the right like how to how do I build community And how do I help people feel loved and safe and like they belong? Because of that fear comes out, right? If I feel like I don't belong, I feel like I specifically I'm not contributing to like the larger thing that we're doing here. And so, you know, in my career, even when I was at Hilton, I got to start this revenue management group and grow it to over over 150 people. And for me a lot of that the getting the chance to hire all these people and build this culture was about how do I how do I help create this psychological safety? Where people know like, it's, it's okay to make mistakes. It's not okay to hide the mistakes. Yeah. And so, I don't know that I answered your question. I'm trying to remember what the actual question was?

Rick Denton: 5:53

Well, that's the beauty. So even as I say, the beauty of travel is sometimes it takes us in unexpected places, I'd rather you take us where we're going. And I actually really like that. I'm hearing a lot of that psychological safety, you're seeing a lot of talk about it, you're seeing a lot of, of that as a point as being a place where companies once they've created that psychological safety, then innovation can thrive. And those that don't have that innovation is, let's just say more challenged, I won't say impossible, but certainly more challenged and environment without that.

Josh Ramsey: 6:25

Yeah, yeah. So I think I, you know, I'd love to give an example you and I actually got to work on this some together within the customer service space. So we would have this weekly business review where everybody's going over like performance metrics and a lot of operational numbers, right. We're, we're, we're looking at how how efficient and effective from a cost control and operational perspective things are going. And so one thing that you and I started to do is, let's start this meeting with some stories. Right? So every week, right, we would come with specific stories. So here's one on how, like how this customer's life was changed, because of the great customer service they were provided, they were going through a really hard time, right? They called in and they needed help. And this specific person like was able to provide that help. And like these are like sometimes these beautiful tear jerker stories, but it helps connect people back to the mission of like, why are we doing this in the first place? We're not here, because we like making efficient organizations. We're here because we want to see people's lives change, you know, we want to deliver that hospitality. And so sharing those stories, and then sharing also stories of here's where we missed the mark. Like, here's one story last week that didn't go well, right, like the customer was still frustrated. And here's what happened there. And for us to look at, okay, where did things fall apart? Or what could we have done to set this person this team member up to be able to be successful in that situation? I think that that's about like, how do we, you you look at sometimes it's easy to point the finger at an individual or a customer. But if you back up and say, what's the environment look like that this person is existing in you can you get understand where the real issue usually is?

Rick Denton: 8:24

Yeah. And that that is definitely a routed some of that psychological safety. And I think we even together saw some of that evolution moving that for there. It's related, but similar vein, I've heard you say that it's foolish to try to separate work in life. Now, that's a very contrarian position. So I'm curious what your thoughts are there. Why do you say that?

Josh Ramsey: 8:43

a great place to start here is Mother Teresa says, work without love is slavery. And then, you know, there's another there's a poet, Khalil Gibran who says, work is love made visible. And like this, this idea that, you know, what we put out into the world needs to come from, like, the depth of who we are. And so if, if that is the case, right? If we're working from the depths of who we are, you can't separate that. Right. It's, it's about bringing your whole self into any thing that you're doing that is work. So I'm not talking specifically about like time management, right? I'm talking about energy and integration, that that if we if we're not fully integrated, and we're like, I'm gonna separate like the you know who Josh is on the weekend and with his kids, I'm gonna be a different person. I've got this other persona. Yeah, I am at work that comes out the side at some point, right, like the dysfunction comes out at some point in time. And so I I'm very big on setting boundaries to say like this is, you know, these are the things I'm going to do within this specific time. And that like here sacred time I'm I'm protecting. So I'm not talking specifically about time management more than I am about separating, like who you are changing your persona for the work that you're doing is I think that's a foolish thing

Rick Denton: 10:23

that does make a lot that that makes a lot of sense. And we've heard the phrase bring your whole self to work and companies that encourage and support that are thriving, and really, really enjoying the fruits of people bringing the their whole selves to work. Now, I think here's where we're gonna need to sit a little quietly, and kind of let you blow our minds. You've told me a little bit about spiral dynamics. Now, I know we don't have time to for you to go super deep here. But I'd like to know a little bit more about it. And walk me through how this applies to employee experience.

Josh Ramsey: 10:59

Yeah, yeah. So there's a great talk that john Mackey from Whole Foods gave on spiral dynamics. And that was one of the first times that I was really exposed to it. But it's this, what there's not a lot of books on it, they would say it's the bio psychosocial development of humans and societies throughout time. Right. And so if you think about like a spiral, starting from kind of the bottom and expanding its way up, kind of like what a tornado would look like, right? Okay. And starting at that base level is early civilization caveman, right, you're at this level, they each of these levels in the spiral have colors. And so you work your way from beige, who is a caveman whose value is survival into purple, who is this, you know, now we're in a tribe, and I want to keep the gods happy, and the tribe warm and safe, that's my value, then moving from purple, into red. So instead of doing a rain dance, maybe we should move closer to the river, I'm going to take power into my own hands to, like, deliver the things that I need, like I'm going to, I'm going to break out from the tribe a little bit and take power, right, like, take act to get what I want. And then so from Red is like blue, which is we evolved as a society. We have rules, we create a government, we have a military and we all like all stick to the rules from Blue unit move to orange, which is like, kind of what I would think of as like, a hedge fund manager, right? Like, let's do the analytics on this, like, let's, let's understand, from a metric perspective, what is important and what isn't. And then from Orange, you move into green, which is like, okay, let's actually pay more attention to our society as a whole, and what am i actions, how do those impact other people in our society, we each, we all kind of operate in this spiral in different places. So like, like, I may be living in the green, or I may be living in the blue. And there's nothing wrong with either one of those, right? So I want to be clear that there's, I think that there's a healthy level at every color in the spiral. And that we're all in different places in the spiral, in our own life individually. And then also, though, in the like communities that were a part of, so regardless of where we are in the spiral, if you and I go to a football game, we immediately turn purple, we're in that tribal space, where like, keep the gods happy, like we become very superstitious. We're all you know, like you your values change. That's right. And so you see this in different places, like where people are, so I think like each, like a company has its own kind of like values center of gravity. Every individual has their own kind of like value center of gravity, which would be like the color in the spiral. And so I think like from a, from a business perspective, from a marketing perspective, from an employee experience perspective, we all have to realize that we are coming to different scenarios with different values. And we may be in a different place. Like you kind of see this with like a Mazda house hierarchy as well, right? If I'm food insecure, I have a different I'm not I'm not thinking about like how to optimize my retirement account. Right, right, right. Like there's different points within the special From that we're all coming to different scenarios. And we all end up having different values because of that. And so I think it's critically critical to like one like acknowledge, okay, as a company, where are we in this spiral? And what are where's my customer at as well? So like, what, how can I meet them where they are and make sure that I'm speaking to their values, even though my values may not be exactly the same.

Rick Denton: 15:33

Little change of pace here. I think after that level of deep thinking, we need to stop it and have a quick bite in the beverage to relax between flights. I'd like you to join me here in the first class lounge. We'll move quickly here and hopefully have a little fun. That's a dream travel location from your past.

Josh Ramsey: 15:50

Hmmm, I would have to say Kauai. Yeah.

Rick Denton: 15:54

Beautiful place. Dream travel location you've not been to yet.

Josh Ramsey: 16:00

I would love to get to like Sardinia.

Rick Denton: 16:05

Ooh, tell me more.

Josh Ramsey: 16:08

You know, I don't know. I just like have I have these dreams of sitting like on the countryside and drinking wine and eating Italian food.

Rick Denton: 16:19

You know? That sounds delightful. So in that vein, what is your favorite thing to eat?

Josh Ramsey: 16:26

tacos. I can eat tacos for every meal. You know, but if I'm traveling I would say in like going to good restaurants like for you know, business lunches and whatnot. I just always order a burger because I feel like it's the the standard kind of thing that you can, you know, test the quality of a place is like, I like to just pick one thing and like stick with it throughout. Throughout the time,

Rick Denton: 16:53

man. I'm getting hungry. I shouldn't have asked that question. Yeah, thing your parents forced you to eat but you hate it as a kid.

Josh Ramsey: 16:59

Um, you know, I hate like, I still hate it is hominy. I don't know why but like, my body can't handle the texture. I just don't like it. I don't know. It may it just like makes me cringe.

Rick Denton: 17:13

That shows your roots too, because I bet there's a good portion of our listeners that just now when all tabs open up a browser and googled hominy.

Josh Ramsey: 17:21

Yeah, right. I love it. But I can warn you that you know, I like corn nuts are the same thing. But I can't do like just regular

Rick Denton: 17:31

So no, no, hominy for you? Well, yeah, what is one travel item you will not leave home without

Josh Ramsey: 17:36

I always take my Apple TV with me. And so it's a little bit of a pain to get it like connected or you just have to use your own hotspot for it, you know, when you're in a hotel a lot of times but it's it's just like so nice to be able to plug in my own thing and and have control.

Rick Denton: 17:59

You've worked for a hospitality company, how have you seen employee experience ultimately impact the travel experience?

Josh Ramsey: 18:06

Yeah, you know, it goes back to what we were talking about earlier. There are about managing out of a place of love versus a place of fear, I'm sure you've been to hotels where like everything at the service level is right, you know, the service is being provided. But there's a bit of like in office in authenticity to it. And and a lot of times that comes from the leader right as the leader coming from a place of love or a place of fear. I have to say like going to the Hilton Houston Americas has been a great like experience for me over and over again. I've met the GM there Jacques, and the way that he just is managing from this like a place of love, it's clear and you can tell that the people that are there that are are coming are sharing that same thing.

Rick Denton: 19:05

I love that and I now I'm looking to find a reason to go stay at that hotel. It sounds delightful and I need to find my way down there. So thinking about that in that travel space, what are some of the experiences you've had that have informed your views on things like employee experience and overall customer experience and how that all weaves together?

Josh Ramsey: 19:21

Yeah. So last year back when there were speaking gigs, I went to Sacramento to give one to some executives and but part of that was kind of like a combo of like a work and a vacation trip and so we were gonna fly into Sacramento do these talks and then drive the one to to LA and leave from there. And so like enjoying this like beautiful scenery and and taking our time over a few days. We get to the rental car place I'd like booked a premium car but they did have like one with a sunroof. And we were like, you know, we're gonna be like doing this, it's gonna be really difficult. And so I, you know, went and talked to the like you it was one of those lots where you go out and you pick your car, you know. And so I went and talked to the person that was at the desk and she was, she was super helpful and just asked like, kind of values based questions. What are you? Like, what is it about these cards that aren't isn't working for you. And she's like, looking around, I booked to the premium, like I had booked a premium one. But like, I think that there was still like a super premium that we didn't pay for, you know, and she's just like, looking around. And then she found this like, amazing Jaguar f type, like with a sunroof, it was like, it was an SUV. And it was like getting cleaned at the moment. And she was like, let me see what I can do that she booked that for us. And it was just like, it was just so nice to be taken care of. And to just for her to, like, I was coming to her a little bit flustered. And like, knowing that, like, technically, I didn't deserve, you know, getting something else, just you know, they had cars that I had, you know, that were within the parameter that I had paid for. And that wasn't available. And so like, you know, but she was able to really like listen to us see how important this was not push some upgrade on us or anything else? And like, deliver a great experience.

Rick Denton: 21:31

Yeah, I could see how something like that. So you you started off by even saying, hey, she asked me value based questions. And it sounds a lot like I frequently use this Disney phrase that she was looking to restore the relationship, not fix the issue. And as you pointed out, there really wasn't an issue. Something hadn't broken. Yeah, just so happened that you the customer had a hope or an expectation that was different than what was being fulfilled. And I love how she seemed to probe and think through that it. I wonder if if you were to go a little deeper with her and find out, you know, what's her employee experience? Like? Does she work in an environment that does that same sort of thing that explores, you know, who she is and what she wants to do and coming out of going all the way back to a place of love, not a place of fear?

Josh Ramsey: 22:17

Yeah, that's a great point like you think about for her like it or for me as the customer, I if I wouldn't have done all that I would have taken a car that was there. And I would have been okay with it. But there still would have been this like underlying gnawing feeling like I didn't get exactly what I wanted, and just a tiny bit of disappointment, which carries over into like my affinity toward that brand. But it's like, exactly, to your point, what kind of questions does her leader ask her that get to that point of understanding values and what matters to her and making sure that I want to make sure I'm helping you get what you want out of this role? And so yeah, that's it all carries over?

Rick Denton: 23:07

You know, I've seen you talk a lot about root cause analysis. And I think about your story there specifically. And it would be really easy to say that, okay, well, the car wasn't available. So we need to increase inventory of cars. Mm hmm. And that would address the symptom. But perhaps going deeper. And there's techniques like the five why's and other sorts of things, yeah. But there could be a root cause analysis all the way back to when you were booking the vehicle, and what clarity was established for you with what premium meant, and where there are opportunities for you to express hate. This is what I'm using it for. And I know we've all gone to the car rental booking process, and some of the things I'm describing are well beyond what it might do. Sure. But if you were to truly do a deep root cause analysis on your experience, how do you think you'd tackle it?

Josh Ramsey: 23:53

there's a there's this author named Byron Katie, that has it kind of an interesting technique that I've started to use. And it mostly comes about, like when you're experiencing like a pain or a frustration. And so, for me, so she she says, to ask a series of like four questions, which is, is it true? How can I know that it's true? And then like, how do I react when I believe that thought? And then who would you be without that thought? And so these are, these are things that kind of go back to like what we were saying, like managing things and leading from a place from within. So it's not like I think, you know, as a leader, a lot of times we can get frustrated with a team member and say, Oh, well, she didn't do the thing that was right. She didn't follow the rules. And if that's the case, right, then you would say is that true that she didn't follow the rules and how can I know that that's true? I see. And so you start to, like, do this work to really like dig deeper and understand why you believe the things that you do or what's really at the bottom of it. I've heard her kind of do this do the work with with, you know, an older like a dad and he was saying, I'm so frustrated because I go to pick up my daughter from you know, school, and she doesn't listen when she won't get in her car seat. And so she he, like she does this work with him and gets to the point where he's saying, you know, she's being a baby and she's not listening, I'm frustrated. And she asks these questions and realizes the daughter wanted to just walk around the school. You know, like, though a daughter one is excited to see Dad wants to spend a little time with him. And her car seats hot, right? Like there's like so many other things going on. And so he discovers that at the end, he's he's turning the whole thing around and realizes I'm the one that's not listening to my daughter, right? Like, she just wants this like if I would have just taken one walk around the school with her and made sure that her like the car is cool enough and her seats comfortable. Yeah, she like I'm the one that's being a baby. It's not actually here. And so like a lot of times, like if I think about like that, that scenario as a leader for for me to come back to Okay, what do I really know is true. And what if the opposite were true? Who am I like without that thought? And you you take the you can try to start taking your misconceptions out of it and realize like, Okay, what what can I do that contributes to this environment?

Rick Denton: 26:41

Yeah. Well, I did, I told our listeners that this would be a bit of a mind Bender, and it definitely was, and here I am coming to this question and saying, Yeah, you know, the five why's and right no no no. Let's talk about these deeper questions. Let's twist your mind. And it is in a full pretzel. So Josh, I really thank you it mean, I love that we started talking about you know, working from a place of love, not a place of fear. And it certainly opening my eyes to your perspective on how you bring your whole self to work. It's not work life balance. It's just being willing to be you wherever you are, whether that's work or life. And certainly the spiral dynamics is gonna take some time for me to digest, but I'm intrigued by it. And I love the thought. And thank you certainly for sharing the the travel stories. I think there's a lot to unpack there. And I love your approach to root cause analysis. So that's great. It's been a delight talking customer experience and travel with you. I'm so glad that you were here on cx passport today. Thanks a lot. It was it was really fun, Josh, I enjoyed it.

Josh Ramsey: 27:43

Thanks for having me.

Rick Denton: 27:48

Thanks for joining us this week on CX Passport. Make sure to visit our website cxpassport.com where you can hit subscribe so you'll never miss a show. While you're at it, you can check out the rest of the EX4CX website. If you're looking to get real about customer experience, EX4CX is available to help you increase revenue by starting to listen to your customers and create great experiences for every customer every time. Thanks for listening to cx passport and be sure to tune in for our next episode. Until next time, I'm Rick Denton, and I believe the best meals are served outside and require a passport.