Rick Denton: 0:05

You're listening to CX Passport, the show about creating great customer experiences with a dash of travel talk. Each episode well talk with our guests about great CX, travel...and just like the best journeys, explore new directions we never anticipated. I'm your host Rick Denton. I believe the best meals are served outside and require a passport. Let's get going. Today, we'll hit the southern half of the globe talking with Julie Cockerill from the Sydney area of Australia. Julie brings a depth of wisdom on organizational design, development and culture as the head change maker of lemon Co. I recently heard Julie on a webinar focused on EQ and the future of work and was blown away. I really appreciated the humanity and the Down to Earth approach she brought to the topic, embracing well being and cultivating joy and boy, both work and home environments. Julie helps clients to achieve sustainable organizational and cultural change. Oh, and she climbed to the Mount Everest base camp. I can't wait to hear about that. Julie. Welcome to CX passport.

Julie Cockerill: 1:21

Oh thanks, Rick It's so lovely to be here with a lovely introduction. You mmake meerelly amazing. So hopefully I can I can do myself justice today.

Rick Denton: 1:30

Oh, I am I am. I guarantee you will. And I'm so excited about this conversation, because I certainly heard the the brains that you shared before and I'm eager for the listeners sharing that as well. So let's start right off the bat talking about EQ. I know EQ is an area of vital importance, but it's often misunderstood. And so I'd love it if you would just start off by helping explain EQ

Julie Cockerill: 1:55

Hmm, yeah, look, I think when I think about EQ, and look, we, you know, there's a, there's some great definitions out there. But I think, you know, really, practically EQ is really when a person with high IQ is somebody that really understands their own emotions, they understand what triggers them, you know, they know how to manage their responses, and, you know, regulate their emotions. And you know, that is really kind of important in a corporate life. But it's also really important in your personal life. You know, Daniel Goleman, is kind of the godfather of this. And, you know, he I've sort of first read his research probably in the late 90s. But he kind of talks about five key elements. So he talks about self awareness, self regulation, you know, empathy, motivation, social skills. So, you know, the really good thing about IQ is it can be developed. So, you know, there's absolutely no reason why we can't be, you know, more focused on developing those skills in ourselves and in others.

Rick Denton: 2:57

Yeah, that's actually a really good point, and not something you hear a lot. I think of EQ is something you hear people, well, they've either got it, or they don't have it. And I imagine we'll talk a little bit about developing that. I know that when we think about EQ, and we think about sort of customer experience, and that you have mentioned this idea of an empathetic style of cx. Now, I suspect that comes from a strong EQ. So kind of walk me through how does EQ influence customer experience.

Julie Cockerill: 3:28

So look, when I think about the best customer experience I've ever heard, and, you know, I think if anyone's ever walked into an apple store, you would have had that experience, you know, that somebody there that's listening intently, is deeply interested in the problem that you're trying to solve is putting themselves in your shoes. And, you know, they're actively looking at the way that they can help you solve that problem. And ultimately, you leave that that store feeling amazing, having bought a ton of stuff, maybe I believe that you did need but it's, it's that's that empathy, right? That's that that sort of authentic, deep caring, and the ability to sort of put yourself in somebody else's shoes. And you can see lots of corporate organizations are now you know, utilizing design thinking as a kind of great toolkit to try to bring some empathy into the way they design their experiences. So, you know, it plays out not only in this sort of fantastic, formal toolset like design thinking, but it can also just be in that sort of genuine understanding of what you need, and how I can help you solve problems.

Rick Denton: 4:43

I'd like to explore that actually a little bit there. So your, your talk about how design thinking and empathy go hand in hand. We've heard that but with design thinking, being that formal, formal to some degree, or also just kind of an understanding and a methodology and EQ and empathy, how have you seen that kind of come together weaving those two? worlds together.

Julie Cockerill: 5:02

Okay, yeah, I think what great frameworks do is that they guide us through a process. So wonderful thing about design thinking is, you know, often you start with, you know, just trying to get the question, right. What is it we're trying to solve? Who is the customer, you know, who is the persona that we're trying to design for deeply understanding their needs, their sort of emotional needs, their, their product needs, you know, what kind of situations they live in, how much they spend, you know, what they want to spend their money on. So I think that's the great thing about a framework like that is it kind of can force you into that sort of empathetic mindset. Now, you know, what really helps that is when the individuals that are participating in that process actually had that really strong empathy, that they really care about their customers, that they really tried to do good work. And I think that's, you know, generally people come to work to do good work.

Rick Denton: 6:05

Let's assume that for this conversation, we're gonna go with that positive view. And actually, I do actually agree with you that we could even go into a whole rabbit hole about employee engagement and employee experience and how that helps them do that. But actually, let's talk about that. So if you think of EQ being the thing that we want, and we want an environment that that does exist in companies, and all the reasons that you described as to why one would want to have it, what is it about EQ? Why do you think companies struggle to create environments where EQ can thrive?

Julie Cockerill: 6:37

So I think quite a bit about this, and I think, you know, businesses are made up of people. So that's the third challenge. And people come from all different walks of life backgrounds, you know, trauma, non trauma, education, non education, socio economic environments. And so EQ is very much an individual sport, you know, you don't have emotionally intelligent organizations, you have emotionally intelligent individuals that work in that organization. And so when people talk about resilient organizations, they've kind of worked with their people to develop those skills. They've worked with their processes to kind of build that in. And so I think, you know, the issue for organizations is always, when we think about EQ, we think about it at a leadership level. So we go, yeah, let's spend all that money, let's train those, you know, those great leaders, and we'll get them some EQ. But we don't actually hold them accountable for it, we don't measure it, we don't reward it. And then the other thing is that, you know, we don't, we don't go deep, we don't go deep into the organization. You know, and I think, I think that's a, that's a misstep, it's a missing sort of opportunity to go right, through all of the individuals.

Rick Denton: 8:00

Yeah. So when you're, tell me understand that a little bit, when you're going deep, you're saying weaving it all the way through the organization? Absolutely. And I've got to imagine, that can be pretty intense, and perhaps more revealing than a company would want to expose themselves to is that some of the the challenge there that companies just don't want to be vulnerable in that space?

Julie Cockerill: 8:22

Look, I, I think, perhaps the way I think about it is that, you know, the more I can help my people develop skills in this area, the more they can manage themselves at work, and more they can manage themselves at home, you know, we spend a lot of time in the office, a lot of time working, sorry, a lot of time we get home at the moment. And, you know, we are sort of combating our own sort of personal stress around, you know, work stress, life, stress, whatever it is. But what I think is really interesting is that there's some fundamental skills that we need in our business. And as we have been spending so much time, you know, sitting in this sort of zoom world, you know, that's we're having to develop new skills and capabilities to collaborate online, you know, to, you know, to work through solutions, to be more effective to be more personally resilient. And I think the more that we can engage people on, you know, how can we help you develop those skills around EQ, that self awareness so you can actually actively participate in this new world that we're working in? Yeah, makes sense to me. So I think maybe the issue is about leaders being potentially fearful around their ability to manage all of this openness. Oh, yeah.

Rick Denton: 9:58

That is yes. That's right. Really interesting Julie, there's actually a cx passport episode, I'm gonna fail on the number. But I was talking with Josh Ramsay and he was very a key part of his point was talking about, you know, fear and if the leader has fear and what that looks like, and how that manifests throughout just the overall employee experience, and I think you're right, that that fear could certainly impact the ability to take that EQ all the way down. So let's, let's talk about that for a second. Let's talk about employee experience. And knowing that a company may have this external, brand and external image that is delightful, and and appears that way. But when the internal employee experience doesn't quite match what that external brand or that external experience might be, like, how is that a disconnect? How does that impact cx? How does that impact EQ? How does that kind of weave together in a in a challenge for a company?

Julie Cockerill: 10:50

Well, okay, that's a really big question. And look, I, I love a bit of Richard Branson here. So, you know, he talks about clients or customers that come first employees come first, you know, if you look after your employees, then everything else will follow your clients will get looked after, you know, the experience will be amazing. But often, the disconnect comes when you know, where we're sort of active in a recruitment process, where, you know, we're engaging and right up front, you know, the brand's amazing, and then they come into the business. And, you know, the bureaucracies high, the politics are at play, and we've all been there, you know, you've got your leader doesn't necessarily turn out to be the person that you thought they would be. Again, we've all been there. But I think, you know, there's a number of sort of fundamental hygiene factors that need to exist for an employee to feel kind of satisfied, right? And that their employee experience is consistent. And that's things like, you know, am I empowered to do my job? can I access training? You know, has my leader got my back? You know, can I talk to them about problems? Are they removing my barriers, so that I can do my work, you know, that sort of servant leadership piece? And, you know, are the processes to help me service my customers? Are they really, really effective? Or am I having to do work arounds and be in effective work? And then the things, you know, that are really sort of the hygiene factor or things like incentives and iteration, you know, am I being rewarded properly? Am I being incentivized to deliver, you know, on the promise for the business, so if all of those things can be really aligned, and even if the majority things can be aligned, you know, that makes a really good employee experience. And then the outcome is, obviously, we get to do good stuff for our customers.

Rick Denton: 12:55

Brilliant, and that, that weaves together so wonderfully. And going back to our original kind of topic, talking about EQ and everything around that it's, it's so vital to have that as a skill. And I do want to explore a little later kind of what you said about how it can be developed later in the show. Let's Let's explore that a little bit, as well, because I think that's so vital to the creation of this employee experience that you're describing, and making sure that it is something that is aligned with what the external appearances are the parents during recruiting, and then the internal realities. We've all been through that for sure. But I can't wait. I just can't. I love hiking. I do I love it. But you've climbed to the Mount Everest base camp. Yes. Tell me about that.

Julie Cockerill: 13:39

Well, I can tell you right from the outset, it was never on my list. So you know, I, you know, grown up in Australia, we love the beach. We love the sun. And so I love skiing. But I I've never really thought about that as as a place I wanted to be wanted to go, I want to experience. And I worked with a couple of fantastic leaders, female leaders who had just come back from from Everest base camp, and, you know, one came back with that terrible cost that you get from climbing too quickly. And the other one came back and she was like, yeah, this is amazing. I went went home. I said to my husband, you know, why don't why don't we do this? He's like, Sure, no worries. You know, let's have a look at it. We'll take some time to research it. And literally by the end of that week, he was I've got a spreadsheet. I've got all of the gear that we need. I've I've done a shortlist of, you know, tour organizations that I think would be really good. I've worked out some dates that we could go and here here is kind of where we can get the flights organized. And I'm like, Well, I guess we're going and I actually broke my foot about 12 weeks out and my husband said to me, I think we should cancel all Let's move into April in 2020. So I said, No, I think we should just do it, I'm going to be fine. And I know I did. And we got there, it was mostly very cold minus 25. And just, you know, fine into Luke law, which in his tiny little plane into, you know, a landing strip that kind of goes like that. And, you know, one false move, and you're kind of off the cliff and they've got a broken smashed airplane on the side. And you think, Oh, please, I need to make it. But it is. So, you know, we're so lucky and so privileged, you know, we live in these great countries and, you know, great suburbs we, you know, I don't know, poverty, I never have, I've been so lucky. And what this gives you is this really beautiful balance of great environment, beautiful people. Bloody cold. You know, we were trekking through snow beuth just the natural beauty. Instead of it was really hard. So you know, the cold at night and the breathlessness and then climbing over rocks. But my god it was it was life affirming.

Rick Denton: 16:22

Well, after a travel and experience like that, I think you're gonna need to hit the first class lounge. So join me here in the first class lounge. We'll move quickly here and hopefully have some fun. Taking Mount Everest off the list for a second what is a dream travel location from your past?

Julie Cockerill: 16:39

look anywhere in Italy? Really? But Sanji Mariano in Tuscany? Oh my gosh. Incredible.

Rick Denton: 16:46

Yeah. Did you climb the towers there? Did you get the views in that stunning just there?

Julie Cockerill: 16:52

Look , what for me the it's one moment where we're sitting at breakfast and the windows open. And you have the beautiful Tuscan view that is the iconic postcard picture and you just go Yeah, I'm here

Rick Denton: 17:08

to cancel your return flight home and decide to live there. From there on. Yes, I have had that I want to be back there. Amen to that dream travel location you've not been to yet.

Julie Cockerill: 17:21

I am really excited about Northern Europe. So anywhere in Scandinavia, or Poland or northern Germany. And then the other thing that I really want to do is hiking Bhutan.

Rick Denton: 17:33

Oh, that's a new one. I have not heard that one on the podcast before. Wow. That's gonna be fantastic. I hope you get there soon. What is a favorite thing to eat?

Julie Cockerill: 17:44

I like a lot of stuff. But my My Favorite Things are prawns, which is shrimp and oysters.

Rick Denton: 17:52

I like both of those. And um, now his listeners may not know but we're recording this in the US evening the Australian morning. So I'm starting to think about what dinner might be maybe it needs to be some prawns and oysters. I like that that thinking there? What is a thing your parents forced you to eat? But you hate it as a kid? tomatoes. Really? Interesting.

Julie Cockerill: 18:13

I don't I'm still not a fan.

Rick Denton: 18:16

Interesting. Yeah. One of my faves. that's a that's a new one as well. What is it about tomatoes? They forced it force it on you and you just couldn't handle it anymore?

Julie Cockerill: 18:25

Um, look, I think it's the it's the yucky stuff inside the seedy stuff. It's the textual thing.

Rick Denton: 18:34

Got it. Okay, that makes some sense. One travel item you will not leave home without

Julie Cockerill: 18:40

definitely toothbrush. And I you know, trekking through to Everest base camp, you get used to not washing hair or washing your face or so that the what I've learned is I can do with just my toothbrush. And but I love a Sudoku. I get on that plane and I immerse myself in a Sudoku and and then it's dinnertime.

Rick Denton: 19:09

Yeah, one of the things I like about travel is it does expose you to so many things and developing that sense of well being through exposure and I find that travel does that same thing that gives me that sense of well being aside from that amazing pace camp experience. What are some other travels you've had that have helped your own well being or even are just amazing places?

Julie Cockerill: 19:31

Oh, look, I'm I'm partial to a health retreat, you know, that sort of total immersion or type of a timeout. And I am really sort of focused on just kind of getting back to basics. And I like to do that every couple of years. It's not like a regular thing. But I just I love being bipedal. You know if I can go and give myself a lie down, and you know, there's a swim up pool bar, and I'm drinking you know, nikitos I You know, I'm really happy because I've got that sort of blend of sort of relaxation, reading time and, but I love Fiji for that, you know, it's three hours away. The Fijian culture is beautiful. It's a great place.

Rick Denton: 20:14

I cannot begin to tell you the depths of my jealousy when you say a sentence that Fiji is a three hour flight away. Fiji is a bucket list item. For folks in America. It is the once in a lifetime. Maybe we'll get there but to have it three hours. That must be wonderful to get there.

Julie Cockerill: 20:30

Ah, look, look at apps. It's I mean, we're also three hours from New Zealand right? And so, you know, love the Kiwis, love, love hiking there. Love the food, love the wine. I also love the fact that they don't have snakes. So you can hike. And there's no no concern about that.

Rick Denton: 20:48

Really?

Julie Cockerill: 20:49

Yeah.

Rick Denton: 20:49

Oh, I did not

Julie Cockerill: 20:51

know how that happened. Yeah, yeah, we've got all these snakes

Rick Denton: 20:55

They stayed in Australia and New Zealand, I didn't know that. That's good to know, something. Maybe a key show note here for sure.

Julie Cockerill: 21:04

travel to New Zealand, you will not get snakes.

Rick Denton: 21:06

That's right, sponsored by the New Zealand Chamber of Commerce. It is not it is not this is authentic conversation. So I know that you have have and continue to help companies achieve sustainable organizational and cultural change. And you hear me kind of emphasize that word, I most often see sustainable as the hard part. How do you go about making that happen?

Julie Cockerill: 21:29

Yeah, you're right. That is the hard part. Because often when we're doing change, we're on a time limit. You know, we're going okay, well, we've got to get that system. And we've got six months. That's the deadline. That's the project in. And I think, you know, this is some of the challenges that change leaders have that, you know, there's often that bit after the project ends, where it just goes back into ba you write it, you know, it loses focus, and then you come back six months later, and they go, Well, why was it successful? Because we had no focus on it. So one is one way. And that's about putting really good habits around it. So really focusing on daily rhythms, good practices, good habits. And so when I'm working with sales organizations, one of the key things I do straight away is look at what are your operating rhythms? You know, what are you doing every day? You know, what's the reporting that you're using? Is it the right thing for you to make decisions on? So we kind of start there? Because that's kind of the bedrock of really good sustainable behavior. And then we look at things like, you know, how do we, what, how do we sort of understand where we're at from a sort of a skill or capability perspective. We do a bit of work on that. And then we will design interventions, specifically targeting, you know, the correction or the uplift or development of those sort of key pieces. And then really, we're measuring things like, you know, adoption, resistance, and you're just constantly kind of feeding into that. But I think one of the big challenges for organizations is their expectation around speed of change. So if we can kind of get real right up front, when you are dealing with behavioral change, or cultural change, you've got to be realistic about what you can push into the organization, how fast you're going? And do you have the right leaders to support the program?

Rick Denton: 23:31

I think I'm asking because I've just seen so many challenges in that area, it seems like there's a lot of great discipline and understanding around how to execute the tactics, maybe of a particular initiative, but the rap the change management wrapper that goes around whatever is happening inside the company, that that seems to be lost a lot of time. So I'm glad to hear those sorts of things. Let's, let's, if I can, let's go back to the beginning. So we started with EQ, I'd like to close with EQ as well. And I'd like to get some tactical thoughts from you, given the wisdom that you've got there. I'd like I'd like to learn, I think our listeners would like to learn if I'm trying to create a culture of EQ, either in my company or honestly, you talked about developing it even inside myself. What are some steps that I can take right away?

Julie Cockerill: 24:21

Yeah, look, I mean, I think, you know, personal change is always the hardest. So for changing General, personal organizational, it's always really hard. And so often we start with personal change. With a catalyst, you know, something's happened. There's been a disaster or, you know, a piece of feedback and, and so that can be a really great you know, sort of prompts. But I think, you know, some of the things that are really just pragmatic and simple that you can start to implement are things like, you know, reflection, a lot of reflection I I use it all the time. Sometimes it can be a bit of over analysis or analysis paralysis. But, you know, let's call it sort of reflection for now. But one of the ways that I use it is that I come out of my meetings, and I go, you know, how did I do? What worked really well? How did I feel? You know, how do I feel now? And, and that's just a really nice way to kind of check in with yourself. So it's reflection, it's checking in, but also a little bit of learning as well, you know, what can I do differently next time. And the more that we can do that, the more that we can kind of instill that little discipline, you know, you just, it just becomes a sort of second nature. And you could do that, at the end of every day, you could do it after every meeting, you could do you know, journaling is a great way to, you know, build self insight as well. You know, what are the three things that I enjoyed about today? You know, what did I learn for tomorrow? And I think, you know, the thing about this is, we want to be focused on sort of strength based discussion with ourselves, not a deficit based discussion with ourselves, right? Because it's eat the deficit stuff. That's easy, right? It's really easy, right? And we get into the negative stuff, and then you get your, you know, that sort of self regulation has to really be strong. To kind of, you know, you've got the sort of battle in your brain going on, you know, at work, buddying up with someone and talking to them about, you know, how you'd like to develop this skill, I think it's really helpful. Even if you're working with a manager, you could you could say, look, this is something I really want to develop a little bit more of, you know, can you help me by using some key questions after our interaction, and having a little bit of facilitation, I like that, because I get to control how feedback is given. And, and then I ready for it, often people aren't ready to receive feedback. So again, that just helps you kind of be reflective, you know, have the right level of information that you need at a time, and allows you to kind of regulate your feelings and emotions a little bit more. The other thing I really think is such a good tool, is that we use a very few words to describe our emotions, you know, we've got happy, said, glad, melancholy, you know, angry, and there is just a plethora of words that can help us describe how we're feeling and emotion in the moment. And you probably would have seen on the, on the interweb. You know, there's this sort of great circumplex. And it's kind of really nicely provides some great descriptors around the different sort of levels of emotion that have underpinning emotions, like fear, and sadness, grief. So get, you know, get that out, and, you know, print it out, cut it out, put it in your book, and then just, you know, learn to sort of really describe and name your emotions is such a great tool. And then really, the other one that I like, is a breathing technique. So there are so many breathing techniques, but that's great. And helping you regulate your emotions in the moment. So if you feel like you're getting a little bit triggered, or you're about to be hijacked, even a simple box breathing, you know, four breaths in hold for four full breaths out, and you can do that silently in a meeting. And no one knows. So, you know, it's a great, it's a great thing for just again, regulating that emotion and just keeping the frontal lobe really clear for thinking.

Rick Denton: 28:49

I was like those tips. Those are very specific things I can do to help grow my EQ and my overall self awareness. It's so helpful on the individual level, not thinking about on a company level, knowing accuse an individual sport, but how can the company help support individuals who want to become adept at EQ? Yeah,

Julie Cockerill: 29:09

so look, what we know about cultural change is it really has to be driven from the leadership level. So the executive team have to role model, what kind of culture and behaviors they want to be driving in the business. Now, sometimes, that can be a good thing or a bad thing. And hopefully, you know, it's aligned to kind of what they're trying to achieve. But often, what kind of kicks off that sort of self reflection or EQ learning moment, is, you know, there's been poor performance in the business, there's pressure from the board, there might be poor engagement results, and so they're sort of forced into doing something. The ideal situation is that you've got a fantastic set of leaders Instead of really interested in developing themselves, and EQ is part of that, it's a really sort of important foundational piece for learning and developing. So you really have to start there, and they really have to own it. So the ideal situation is that you don't have a child coming and going, you need to do that, or this is the way we're going to do it, instead of actively engaged in making the decisions around how they're going to develop it. So I think that's the first thing. The second thing I really like is, is that sort of change, really strong change management approach? So, you know, how do we get people interested in actually doing this for themselves? And, you know, you sort of create a bit of a groundswell, you know, start with education purposes. What is a queue? How do we, how do we kind of, you know, develop it in ourselves? You know, how, what's our level of EQ, currently, you know, what is the kind of little tactics that we could use every day. And the more that you can do that, you know, you're a creating champions, but you're kind of you've got this wonderful groundswell, that sort of building up and people are starting to talk about it and get interested engaged with it. So I think that is a really lovely way to do it. I haven't seen that done a lot in organization. So, you know, hopefully I put it out there, and someone's gonna go, Yeah, what a great idea. And then really, the other way is to make sure that you're recruiting for it. So you're recruiting for it, and you're measuring for it. And look, you know, the, the upside is that if you're going to do the work around EQ and resilience and well being, then recruiting people with that, it's going to make a huge difference, right? They're coming in, they can really support the process. The downside is if you bring someone in, you're not doing the work, and they've got a really low EQ later, you know, that that could be that could have a detrimental effect. So but I think that's a really, that's a really great way to do it, get people in that actually have it.

Rick Denton: 32:13

I like closing with that, actually, that is that is such an important part of of a company's overall health, and culture and everything aspect, it all often gets forgotten, because so often companies are recruiting for skill. But frequently, they fail to include things like EQ, or in the customer experience, world, heart for the customer, or other things that sort of fit that empathy and self understanding mode, and beginning to consider that as you evaluate your pipeline coming in, it's such an important part of a company being made up of a collection of individuals that demonstrate that great EQ. Julie, what a wonderful conversation, I am so thankful that you were willing to carve out some time to talk to us here at cx passport. It has been a really significant learning moment. For me, I love just being able to kind of get grounded again on what is EQ and the definition of EQ and what that means and what it looks like the Apple Store example being a great one, I will continue to remember that, you know, business is made up of people backgrounds, and this collection of folks. But that EQ is an individual sport, I think that is kind of one of those mind blowing sort of moments for me. And clearly mind blowing for me is hearing about hiking to the Mount Everest base camp. And I didn't know the part of the story that you had a broken foot going into that. So yeah. What a What an amazing, resilient and courageous sort of tough moment that was for you. So good on you. And then yes, maybe the last thing I should say here is no snakes in New Zealand. Awesome. That may be the most valuable nugget that travelers have been provided No, thank you, again, helping us understand EQ, I think there are some really tactical elements that the audience can take away and start to apply in their own minds, myself included in their individual lives. But then how companies can take this and grow this into their overall organizations so valuable. Julie, thank you so much. I really appreciated you having you on today. It was a delightful conversation. Thanks and have a great rest of your day.

Julie Cockerill: 34:21

Thank you, Rick. It's been such a lovely conversation.

Rick Denton: 34:27

Thanks for joining us this week on CX Passport. Make sure to visit our website cxpassport.com where you can hit subscribe so you'll never miss a show. While you're at it, you can check out the rest of the EX4CX website. If you're looking to get real about customer experience, EX4CX is available to help you increase revenue by starting to listen to your customers and create great experiences for every customer every time. Thanks for listening to CX Passport and be sure to tune in for our next episode. Until next time, I'm Rick Denton, and I believe the best meals are served outside and require a passport.