👉Love customer experience and love travel? You’ve found the right podcast, a show about creating great customer experience, with a dash of travel talk. 🎤Each episode, we’ll talk with our guests about customer experience, travel, and just like the best journeys, explore new directions we never anticipated. Listen here or watch on YouTube youtube.com/@cxpassport 🗺️CX Passport is a podcast that purposely seeks out global Customer Experience voices to hear what's working well in CX, what are their challenges and to hear their Customer Experience stories. In addition, there's always a dash (or more!) of travel talk in each episode.🧳Hosted by Rick Denton, CX Passport will bring Customer Experience and industry leaders to get their best customer experience insights, stories and hear their tales from the road...whether it’s the one less traveled or the one on everyone’s summer trip list.
I'm Rick Denton and I believe the best meals are served outside and require a passport
Music: Funk In The Trunk by Shane Ivers
CX Passport is a podcast for customer experience professionals that focuses on the stories, strategies, and solutions needed to create and deliver meaningful customer experiences. It features guests from the world of CX, including executives, consultants, and authors, who discuss their own experiences, tips, and insights. The podcast is designed to help CX professionals learn from each other, stay on top of the latest trends, and develop their own strategies for success.
📖 Our book is here! Get your copy of The Loud Quiet – Love, Laughter and Life in the Empty Nest, here: https://amzn.to/4sC0EV7
Want to know how to get Customer Experience right? Not just the day to day getting CX right but also making sure significant CX initiatives are actually successful?
Have a listen to today’s CX Passport guest, Jo Boswell, who has a wealth of experience in just that...getting CX right.
After an extensive customer experience career at British Airways, Jo created a CX consulting company, Sentio-B, dedicated to providing the support and encouragement for customer experience leaders that she wished she could have had when she was in the field.
Jo led successful, financially significant CX initiatives for major, complex companies and knows what it takes.
And of COURSE we’ll talk travel.
Learn about all that from Jo!
Hosted by Rick Denton, CX Passport guides you through a conversation on customer experience and travel.
You're listening to CX Passport, the show about creating great customer experiences with a dash of travel talk. Each episode well talk with our guests about great CX, travel...and just like the best journeys, explore new directions we never anticipated. I'm your host Rick Denton. I believe the best meals are served outside and require a passport. Let's get going. Getting customer experience right isn't easy. I'm not just talking about the day to day getting cx right but also making sure significant cx initiatives are actually successful. Want to get those right we'll have a listen to today's cx passport guest Jo Boswell who has a wealth of experience in just that, getting cx right. After an extensive customer experience career, British Airways Jo created a cx consulting companies seem to be dedicated to providing the support and encouragement for customer experience leaders that she wish she could have had when she was in the field. Joe led successful financially significant cx initiatives from major complex companies and knows what it takes. And yeah, you know how much I love travel. So you bet I'm eager to hear about the travel experiences of someone who worked for one of the world's most prominent airlines. Joe, welcome to CX Passport.
Jo Boswell:
Thanks, Rick, it's great to be here.
Rick Denton:
I'm so glad to have you on. You know, let's start off with I know it takes people with strong cx leadership skills to drive a company to have a strong cx focus. So what do you think are those skills that make a strong cx leader?
Jo Boswell:
Yeah, I think that's a great question. And actually, you probably won't be surprised to hear that the first thing I'm going to say is that they need to be able to demonstrate very strong commercial skills. And really, that is all about the ability to translate the benefits of what they're doing with any customer experience, initiative or program into language that the business will understand. And, you know, actually, if they're unable to get the, you know, the benefits of their customer experience efforts to really resonate with the organization, I think it's just super hard to get traction. So commercial understanding and that relentless focus on on results, I think, is is probably the first thing I would say, Okay. Moving on, then I think actually, you've got to be an expert influencer, right. So, you know, with any kind of customer experience work, we're working right across the organization. And so I think customer experience leaders really need to hone their influencing skills, to be able to really persuade, you know, all those different areas of the business, to come on board with the initiative that they're driving forward. So I think, you know, honing those influencing skills is is really important. I think the third thing they need is to be able to inspire and motivate right? colleagues right across the organization at all levels. So for me, that's about creating a really compelling internal narrative for the business, so that people really get why it's important, but even more importantly, they're inspired and motivated to deliver on that and to make the changes and to adapt in the way that that customer experience leader is is asking of them. I'm sorry, to say something well,
Rick Denton:
I was but I actually want you to keep going because you've already were what a minute in here. And I'm already My mind is already sort of blown a little bit, but keep going with your list because I do want to hear the rest of your list. But I'm already thinking, wow, there's some things that are not immediately intuitive that I like about what you said no one,
Jo Boswell:
okay. Okay, so I'll have two more for you. So so my fourth skill is about collaboration. And again, you know, so often, when I talk to customer experience leaders, the thing they they are really struggling with is how to join up the experience for customers when the organization is basically based around functions and departments. And so I see that the, you know, primary focus for a customer experience leader is to create that collaboration that enables the experience to be joined up for the customer and for the customer to exceed perience you know, all of those different interactions in a far more joined up way. And so I think, engendering that collaboration is really important, but it also needs to be underpinned with some great governance, right as well. So, you know, some guardrails, really that that kind of keep everybody moving in the right direction, and creating that platform to be able to have the right debates around, you know, how to resolve some of the, you know, perhaps conflicting issues that inevitably occur in in, you know, the day to day experiences. And my final, my final, sort of really critical asset for a customer experience leader is actually personal resilience. Yes. And that really is something that, you know, I speak very much from personal experience in this regard. But I think, as a cx leader, we've just talked about, you know, the need to create this collaboration to be an expert, influencer, working right across the organization, getting different departments to collaborate in ways that they probably never have done before. That can be a really, really tough gig isn't, it isn't always gonna go well. So I think in order to be able to sort of, you know, manage, manage that ongoing challenge day to day, you know, treating sort of, you know, setbacks, just as sort of, you know, minor inconveniences, shall we say, then, you know, I think that personal resilience, attribute is, is really critical,
Rick Denton:
there is so much that you have set in there, I'm going to start right right off at the beginning of what you said, and that was, I may not have the exact words, but sort of a, you won't be surprised when I say, and yet your first thing was commercial, aptitude, commercial experience, or, you know, business awareness. And actually, I think that is, it is a growing awareness of those in the CX field, that that is vitally important to be for a cx leader. But I think historically, that has been something that's been neglected that in the CX space, it's been more about kind of the storytelling, or the, you know, say a survey result or something along those lines that help drive a business a particular direction, but there hasn't been great clarity in the tying it to an actual dollar result. And I think that's why your history includes so many successful, you know, as I said, in the intro, financially significant CX is that you are you starting right there with, you're not gonna have a whole lot of influence without the commercial reality and the commercial understanding. Yeah, and then something that kind of, I find interesting, and I almost want you to unpack it just a little bit here. But you said, influence his skill, too. And then, like, getting people excited and motivating. And and and that aspect of it was the third skill. And so there's, I'm curious how you see the difference between influence, and then motivation. And and that aspect, we could talk about all the other skills. But guess what, I'm curious how you define those two worlds?
Jo Boswell:
Yeah, so I do see the two as distinct from each other, because actually, I think the influence part tends to be at a much more senior level. So you know, that is about ensuring that you know, the stakeholders who have the ability to kind of, you know, make or break, whatever you're doing, who are the ones that are going to say, you know, yes or no, to the investment that you're seeking. That kind of that's the kind of influencing that, that I'm talking about in terms of a cx leader, really needing to have traction at that very senior level, to have those senior leaders prepared to make the investments that are required, but more importantly, to back up the narrative with actions themselves. Because, you know, the organization will be looking for those little signals from senior leaders. And it's, I think, so important to ensure that they are seen to be absolutely, you know, right behind the initiative, the kind of inspire and motivates peace is for colleagues at all levels, as we know. So just as important, I think, at that various senior level, but then right across, you know, to the people who are day to day, handling those customer interactions, and that is about really ensuring that you're creating the right environment for those colleagues to succeed and behave in a way that you know, the customer experience, leader is is you know, seek To execute,
Rick Denton:
you're hitting right at my heart on that one, I love the Inspire category, the skill that's it's one of my, my default, I probably go more towards that. That's what I love about the list. And we will put your list of skills in the show notes here so that folks can reference them later. But the idea of inspire inspiring and storytelling in the emotion of it, that's what really gets me kind of excited. But I think it's important to go back to that first skill to write the one of, you can get all excited, and it can be a really nifty story. But if it doesn't inspire, oh, make a little joke here. If it doesn't inspire the CFO, then you don't really have any cx initiatives. They're so vitally important. So I know you do this, and I know you're helping people grow their skills, how do you work with others to grow those cx leadership skills?
Jo Boswell:
Yeah, so my approach is very much predicated on the premise that the CX leaders that I work with, are best placed themselves to understand the specific challenges of their their organization, but sometimes they just need a little bit of help to navigate those those challenges. So I very much use of coaching approach that helps them sort of really objectively, you know, kind of take a bit of a step back objectively examine some of the obstacles, and then construct a very sort of pragmatic approach that is relevant and appropriate to their, their specific circumstances and organization.
Rick Denton:
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
Jo Boswell:
Yeah. And I think, obviously, to a certain extent, you know, having had that practical experience myself, I can also use that, you know, from time to time in a more advisory capacity as well. But it's, it's very much about helping those leaders kind of realize their own potential, through that coaching approach,
Rick Denton:
what I like about that approach to and even as we had talked about before, and there in the intro, we talked about how you wish you'd had someone doing this for you when you were in that cx role. But what I like about that coaching style is that it inspires them to be the coach to others, right? So CX is delivered across a multitude of points across an organization. And that coaching, if you've coached someone as a leader than they can then take that same style as they grow and develop their teams. Now, I think that's, that's as they grow and develop their teams or as they influence across the organization. So I know you've worked with people who are really strong and CX, they've developed these skills, they got that list, but they're in an org that has this wide spectrum of strength and those cx skills. So how do you help leaders kind of advanced cx either initiatives or an overall cx approach? When the other leaders just aren't there yet?
Jo Boswell:
Yeah, it's some that's a really difficult challenge. One that I think we sort of encounter frequently, but you know, I think it comes back to that internal engagement approach. And I think it's really important to make an accurate assessment of what your starting point is, and you know, who who are the supporters around the business, you know, where are you knocking on open doors, and where are you likely to face pockets of resistance. And so, you know, I, I use, you know, some some practical toolkits, really, in terms of that, that kind of stakeholder mapping approach, and then really thinking through a very pragmatic way to start to overcome and you know, that some of the resistance and, you know, influence those, those key stakeholders to towards a different outcome. So, you know, again, it comes back to a lot of those skills that we've already talked about, you know, all wrapped up in in terms of, you know, creating that narrative, but then being able to demonstrate the results and, you know, create the compelling business case when, when that is required. So if, if it's an organization that starting out, but you know, potentially facing some fairly big issues from a technical or data perspective, then I would very much encourage that that leader to take a pragmatic approach and get some early wins. So, you know, that's always sort of one of the things that I preach relentless focus on results, and then really shout about them when they come.
Rick Denton:
And that's, you know, that's both of those are important. Let me I both have kind of given me a little thought here. It goes back to that results, that business awareness, that thing, but I like the phrase that you said, go knock on open doors. I think there's such a temptation for all of us to look for, what is the greatest challenge where can we make the biggest impact and sometimes that biggest impact has some Some barriers in front of it, that it might you might be best served going after some, that's not necessarily the biggest impact, but you'll have that quick win. And you can walk around, walk around the building or in the virtual building, and hold that up high and say, Look what we did and that inspire others. I definitely appreciate that approach that you're bringing, they're very pragmatic. Well, it does not surprise me to hear that pragmatic approach. And I think, again, that that's why you are the fount of successful cx initiatives and guiding people to create these successful cx initiatives. So now let's, let's talk travel just a little bit, right. So I know you've got a wealth of experience in the travel space, both professionally and personally. So what have you seen work well, in the travel industry from a cx perspective?
Jo Boswell:
Yeah, so I think, I mean, in airlines in particular, in travel, obviously, it's an environment where a lot can go wrong and often does go wrong and yes, and that and it can be you know, at times, sort of, you know, really a really big crisis affecting a lot of customers simultaneously. So I think one of the most important things to do is to have the systems and processes in place to proactively put that right in the moment and I certainly saw the power of that when I was working at VA where you know, often the satisfaction scores with customers who had had something go wrong in in their in their journey but where that had been recovered proactively and with empathy those satisfaction scores were often higher than then they were for customers where everything went absolutely to plan right with a with a punctual flight and so on. And so I think it's it's crucial to have the, the environments where frontline colleagues have are able to demonstrate that empathy and and that often comes through having the right customer information to know what has happened to this person but also the ability through business processes to be able to proactively rectify it. And I think you know, customers who who travel very often are you know, they acknowledge that these things will go wrong, right, and you know, they know that that can happen but if the colleagues that are dealing with them can do that sensitively and with empathy then I think they are likely to be far more forgiving. So just acknowledging that that has been that problem you know, I think is a really important first step
Rick Denton:
Jo a little change of pace here. Sometimes when those trips do go wrong, it is nice to have access to the lounge and so I want to invite you here to join me in the first class lounge we'll move quickly here and hopefully have some fun. What is a dream travel location from your past?
Jo Boswell:
Oh, this is a really really tricky one you've got some some some tough questions I think. So I will say I have spent a lot of time in Cape Town which I truly love as a destination that has great food and wine as well as fabulous scenery but I think I'm going to have to go instead of that I'm going to have to go with Cuba it's where I met my husband
Rick Denton:
Yeah, so that's always going to have a special place in your heart now ukulele for those that don't know the full context I am an American Joe is talking to me from the UK so I don't have access to that destination. So I have a little bit of envy here you and I've talked to my Canadian friends and how they go down to Cuba. I've heard brilliant things there but I can certainly see why it would be a special place in your heart if that's where you met your husband
Jo Boswell:
Yeah, you can get there one day
Rick Denton:
I do hope for that I sincerely hope for that. Um, so maybe that's a dream travel location that I've not been to yet but what about you? What is a dream travel location you've not been to yet
Jo Boswell:
so one that is definitely on the list at some point is the Galapagos Islands. Yeah, so I have friends who have been and come back absolutely raving and I enjoy holidays that are looking at wildlife and you know, and locations that are really you know, different and unfamiliar. And I think that ticks a lot of the boxes
Rick Denton:
Boy does it ever definitely hits all those boxes there. You mentioned the good food and Cuba what is a favorite thing overall to eat?
Jo Boswell:
Yeah. That was super tough because I do like food. I ended up I think I just gonna have to pick bread actually. Because if somebody said to me, you could never have baguette or a really great crusty sourdough ever again, I would be truly disappointed.
Rick Denton:
Jo, I'm hearing a lot of similarities between you and me. I did not know, I have frequently said to people that if I had to, I would be able to live life solely on French bread, cheese and wine and satisfied for the rest of my days.
Jo Boswell:
Yeah, that's a very good technique, I think.
Rick Denton:
Well, yeah, a picnic. And sometimes when you're a backpacker, in Europe on a college budget, perhaps it's the only meal the true experience. So on the flip side, what is the thing your parents forced you to eat, but you hate it as a kid?
Jo Boswell:
Well, I have to say, I was very lucky growing up, in that I was a picky eater, okay. And my parents were very, I wouldn't say indulgence. But they, they kind of just gave me the time and space to discover, you know, food and, and variety in food, in my own time, and at my own pace. So there was probably about a year of my life when I didn't know when I was eight or nine, where I survived on egg and chips. Oh, gosh. And that was after a particularly horrendous shepherd's pie that had been served to me at school that I could, you know, found it very difficult to keep it down. And but you know, over time, then I just started experimenting with lots of different foods. And today, I would say there's virtually nothing that I don't eat for virtually nothing.
Rick Denton:
Well, I love the spirit of exploration there. And I'm sure that there would be plenty of guides that might say, hey, let the let the child explore there. But I've also heard plenty of things that children have been forced to eat so we may call yours Shepherd pie for the category. But yes,
Jo Boswell:
School Shepherd pie.
Rick Denton:
Oh, yeah. Well, that's true, right? school cafeteria can be a totally different experience. So not including a phone, of course, but what is one thing that you will not travel without?
Jo Boswell:
Yeah, that is an easy one. That is my eyeshades. They accompany me everywhere. And they're an absolute godsend.
Rick Denton:
So Joe, going back to where we started our conversation, you may have noticed, I specifically didn't say, a leader of a cx org, I seem to see so much discussion over where cx should sit. But I wonder if that's focusing the discussion on the wrong topic? What do you think about that debate of where cx should sit? And, and and those conversations?
Jo Boswell:
Yeah, I get very frustrated about that particular debate, I see a lot of opinion pieces about the subject of customer experience, as well, when in fact, people are talking about customer service a lot of the time. And I mean, really, ultimately, the only place that all of these responsibilities come together is with the CEO, right? So I advocate obsessing a lot less about job titles, and the organizational structure, and really focusing a lot more on that collaboration and influencing that we talked about earlier. Because that's what you need to do to drive the cultural change, you know, you're not going to have the responsibility that the CEO has. But you need to be really kind of galvanizing the whole organization in a way a CEO would write to, to all drive in the same direction.
Rick Denton:
I think, and one of the things that you've inspired me with when I've heard you talk before and even hearing you talk now is that spirit of cx can be really in can be and should be anywhere and everywhere. And the skills that it takes to be a quote cx leader, really can be manifested anywhere throughout the organization, and almost an organization that is the most customer centric and there's varying degrees of what that even means. I'm certainly not trying to introduce a bit of debate around what is the customer centric me, but it's that spirit and I like how you you've sort of centered folks around these are just the skills of what it takes to be a cx leader not Yeah, this is where a cx leader should be.
Jo Boswell:
Yeah, absolutely. And each each organization I think is different. So you know, those those decisions about sort of formal authority and responsibility, you know, they will be they will be different for every every organization so there's no kind of one size, just as with My experience is no one size fits all within the org structure and I think it's about you know, really tuning in to the specifics and the characteristics of an organization to to you know, work out what is most appropriate
Rick Denton:
that and exactly that right that spectrum that recognize that there is no one size fits all. So I know that I first heard you on bill Staikos is brilliant, brilliant, big customer lead podcast. Now listeners, go out there right now hit pause, search at B customer lead podcast, find Joe's episode, grab it, download, and then come back to cx passport to hear the rest of Joe's wisdom. But you said something that caught my ears that actually you said a lot of things, but I'll focus on one right now around assessing value when there are so many collective or competing variables being assessed? And if that was your number one skill, kind of that business orientation? And then that's how it feeds into influence and results. How do you guide companies to wade through all of those variables to find the right ones to address?
Jo Boswell:
Well, I think you know, it comes back to how are you going to get that ongoing support from senior stakeholders and really focusing on the outcomes that the organization is seeking in business terms. And figuring out how as a cx leader, you can make changes that will add up and affect those, you know, positive outcomes for the business. And I think it's you know, it's about being really pragmatic with that you may have a destination in mind as a cx leader of you know, some fantastic ways in which you can revolutionize the experience, but if you can't demonstrate the business impact in terms of improving you know, overall, the financial health of the company, it will be really, really hard to get support and traction for that. So you know, I think it comes back to that pragmatic approach that focuses on results, you know, demonstrates results gives the you the ongoing air cover, and then gives you the permission to continue to invest.
Rick Denton:
Yeah, okay, that makes a lot of sense. And I think that because it is you've worked out I mean, let's be British Airways is possibly one of the most complex It was one of the most global airlines from the beginning. And all the different things that go into delivering a great customer experience both the day to day experience and then the ongoing initiatives what that looks like in an airline is just super complex. And so as I understand it there with those words, but to hear you how you've you've kind of broken that down is is important. I think I want to close out here with another kind of travel but I want to go back to something that we talked about right there before we entered the first class lounge and you talked about and it's so true, right? The Great just sort of straight line great customer experience often delivers less stickiness or less of an emotional connection to someone that had a disappointment. And then it was restored to them. And you said something that caught my ear and it was both the systems in place to handle that proactively but then also the empathy and I'm curious because those are left brain right brain it mixes those two worlds together. How have you seen that you know, how do companies get that right? Those specifically developing the proactive and then getting that empathy right because I'll be honest, I've had a lot of trouble lately. I'm not seeing that as often as I'd like to so how do companies get that part right?
Jo Boswell:
Yeah, and I think that is so important and and for me that that's about really working very closely with whoever is responsible for the brand What does the brand stand for? And and also how does that translate into a set of service standards. And you know, I think as a cx leader, you need to be working hand in glove with the people who are responsible for you know, setting what those service standards are and also you know, the whole sort of training and coaching approach that reinforces the you know, the right kind of behavior from from frontline employees so it's, you know, you need the overarching narrative that reminds people why it's important and and what they need to do. But then you also need to translate that into, you know, a set of standards that they know, you know, they are, they need to live up to, and they will be measured against and then you need to reinforce those behaviors. by celebrating it when it goes really well you know, and making sure That those stories resound, sort of loud and clear around the organization, you know, and create that positive feedback loop with frontline employees. And you know, I think those sorts of steps can really, you know, take it a long way to encouraging the right approach and encouraging colleagues to take the initiative. And you know, put things right for the customer, because they know that that is the behavior that will get rewarded. and recognized
Rick Denton:
Oh, I'll tell you, I love it. You and I are of such similar mindsets there. And that celebrate inspire it is storytelling. It we talk about all the time, but how many companies are getting it right? How many? Aren't there is just such a wealth of motivational impact in the storytelling there? Well, Jo, I've absolutely enjoyed once again, I'm coming out of here with a ton of wisdom. And I greatly appreciate that I love even how you've almost kind of in the last question linked us back to the first question. And that is talking about things like inspiration, and using that to influence and how standards and all of that, and the collaboration that takes place. All of that builds these skills, or are the foundation blocks of the skills of a great cx leader, and how that then translates into successful cx initiatives. It's been great to hear about your travel experiences. It is I do hope you get to the Galapagos very soon. And I hope that is a trip in your near term future. But Joe, thank you so much for this brilliant wisdom that you provided both in the SEO space in this travel stories that you've offered. I've enjoyed every bit of talking with you today. And I wish you the best of the rest of your day. Thank you, Joe.
Jo Boswell:
So thanks for inviting me, Rick. And actually, if anybody wants to get in touch, because they would like to know more about the teaching approach, then I'm very happy to you know, to have a sort of free introductory call so people can either look me up on LinkedIn. I hope you'll put the
Unknown:
show notes are going to have all about Jo and how to get in touch with her and and the best ways to get in touch. For sure, Jo Absolutely. I would hate for anyone not to have the opportunity to dive into the wisdom that you have. So thank you for being on the episode. Again. Wonderful to hear from you. And I would certainly wish you the best.
Jo Boswell:
Thank you, Rick.
Unknown:
Thanks for joining us this week on CX Passport. Make sure to visit our website cxpassport.com where you can hit subscribe so you'll never miss a show. While you're at it, you can check out the rest of the EX4CX website. If you're looking to get real about customer experience, EX4CX is available to help you increase revenue by starting to listen to your customers and create great experiences for every customer every time. Thanks for listening to CX Passport and be sure to tune in for our next episode. Until next time, I'm Rick Denton, and I believe the best meals are served outside and require a passport.
