Rick Denton: 0:05

You're listening to CX Passport, the show about creating great customer experiences with a dash of travel talk. Each episode well talk with our guests about great CX, travel...and just like the best journeys, explore new directions we never anticipated. I'm your host Rick Denton. I believe the best meals are served outside and require a passport. Let's get going. It's one thing to bring great customer experience into industries where it's expected. luxury travel experiences fine retail. But what about spaces where it's not expected and not common? Why shouldn't a customer have a nonprofit expected great customer experience? What about the world of debt? Today's guest Katie Stabler founder and director of customer experience at cultivate customer experience by design is brave enough, and has the drive to ensure that all get a great customer experience regardless of situation. I was introduced to Katie through a prior cx passport guest Sharon Boyd Episode Two. And it found Katie to hold an incredible heart for the customer in a strong drive to create a great business focused on helping companies deliver great cx. Also, you know what I say about the best meals? What if I told you Katie has had the chance to prepare her best meals on Master Chef UK. You'll hear about that today, too. I am super excited to talk with Katie today, Katie. Welcome to CX Passport.

Katie Stabler: 1:33

Thank you so much for having me. I'm super excited to be here.

Rick Denton: 1:36

It's going to be fantastic. This is one I'm very excited about. So your company's name and tagline intrigues me cultivate customer experience by design, design, it's so important to cx and I enjoy the image of really caring for the experience with the word cultivate. Tell me more about your brand and how you go about cx design.

Katie Stabler: 1:55

Yeah, I mean, for me, an organization's customer experience absolutely has to be designed, it has to be intentional, it has to be purposeful. You know, you can't just throw a product or service out there, a load of tech, a team a bunch of processes and just expect things to work. And likewise, the customer experience, once it has been designed and implemented, it needs to be continually nurtured and continually cultivated, which is where that word came from. Your customers change your business change, you change, as all of this evolves, your customer experience strategy does too.

Rick Denton: 2:31

You know, it's funny how that when you're saying it, it's so obvious. And yet so many places aren't thinking about that it's almost, hey, I've plopped in customer experience, and therefore it's going to succeed going forward. So when you're thinking about how you help companies get that right, let's talk about how a company can really optimize its cx team, what are some examples of where you see it going? Well, and I'd love to hear some examples where it might be falling short.

Katie Stabler: 2:58

Well, it's so interesting, Rick, that you use the word team there, because for me, that is often where I see one of the pitfalls. So I think so many organizations, they don't actually have a team or even a dedicated cx function, your customer experience is growing in popularity, it's a buzzword organizations are really starting to get it. But still, you know, depending on the size of the company, and the resource you have, many organizations just don't have that dedicated functionality. And I think that is one of the areas in which customer experience initially is on a back foot, because customer experience is not a side of the desk initiative. I'll give you a really good tangible example of that. So when I took on my first big corporate role, I was hired with the position of both the head of customer experience and the head of quality assurance. Now that's fine. I like to challenge so good. And quality assurance and customer experience, actually a really complimentary. But if you consider that this organization was an organization with over four and a half, 1000 employees, or over 700,000 new customers a year, oh my gosh, really it should have had Yeah, huge. I really should have had a customer experience functionality as opposed to a split roll. Eventually, it did through the tenacity of myself and the wonderful cx director I worked with it transitioned and I became 100% cx focus there, and the CX team grew. But if you don't have that ability to dedicate some kind of resource, be it time people. That's one of the pitfalls that customer experience strategy will instantly come foul of.

Rick Denton: 4:43

Yeah, it is. I'm sorry, go ahead because I'm sitting there reacting to what you just said there. And it's so true, right? That that idea of the dedication and maybe a little later maybe asking you about okay, but sometimes that can't be the case, but maybe we explore just a little bit later but keep going. I'm sorry for interrupting

Katie Stabler: 5:00

No, no. At the flip side of that, exactly, that's the flip side. So the thing that connects companies and customer experience and where they really get it right, is when they do have that dedication to customer experience. And in particular, when it's a real team endeavor. So it's not just the CX lead or the CX department. I think we hear about the dangers of operating in silos all the time I get to silos is one of those words, isn't it where you hear it now and your eyes roll, because it's the obvious excuse that we go to when there's a problem. But I genuinely believe that when it comes down to customer experience, there is no better chance of success than when customer experience isn't just the responsibility of the CX lead. But it's the responsibility of everybody in the organization. And those organizations that really support their cx lead to embed themselves within all areas of the business, support the departments to see how they impact customer experience, and equally how they can derive value from enhanced customer experience. That is, when customer experience is set up for success.

Rick Denton: 6:07

Boy, I could not agree more, because I've heard the extreme one, I've the extreme that you just described, right? Where you were talking about how there is no existence of a customer experience team or that sort of thing. And it's survivable. Actually there, you know, there's a way to survive that if it doesn't exist. But then there's the other extreme, which is, oh, the CX team, they're the ones that handle that customer stuff. We don't need to worry about it, because that cx team handles it. So I'm curious, in that vein, so let's assume there's a cx team, how have you worked with committers? How have you seen companies do a really good job of making sure that the CX team is not this isolated beast that everybody perceives, they handle CX, but rather, they're there to help facilitate and Shepherd cx throughout the entire company,

Katie Stabler: 6:48

It is definitely that whole team input from every different area, I think what really gives it a foot up and put our foot in the door is when senior and more executive members of the organization get it, and they are promoting it and sponsoring it and supporting, maybe opening those doors where perhaps doors are tricky to open, right. But also, I think it comes down to the higher you know, you need to make sure that your customer experience person, whether they are a lead who's taken on that functionality, or whether it is going to be a bit of a side of the desk job. I think they have to have tenacity to knock on people's doors and show people how important customer experiences because not everybody gets it straight away. And it is one of those roles as well away. Everyone thinks common. It's common sense, it's easy customer experience. And it kind of is but you still need that focus and attention on it consistently. So you do need somebody who's willing to show up at meetings, squeeze their way into agendas, and make sure that it's always a point of focus

Rick Denton: 7:56

Boy you. It is it is weird how things kind of happened, it is not that you knew about the other recordings or the content on some of the other recordings that hadn't been released yet. But the phrase personal resilience or the you know that insistence on driving forward and not giving up is now coming up as a recurring theme. And so I'm glad that you brought that up, because there is sort of a sometimes there can be a cx fatigue at places. And that okay, we heard it, it was a new initiative, we got excited about it. But then once it becomes sort of the day to day business operating elements, there's a fatigue, and that cx leader, whether it's a formal CX, or someone just responsible for driving it forward, has to have that personal resilience to keep the customer at the heart and at the center of the company. And I appreciate you bringing that insistence to this conversation.

Katie Stabler: 8:42

It's so interesting that you mentioned resilience, because I totally agree. You know, in fact, I was listening to a TED talk on resilience this morning. It had nothing to do with customer experience, but everything felt relevant. So yeah, really interesting. You bring that up.

Rick Denton: 8:56

So let's let's pivot just a little bit cuz I can't wait any longer. I've been I've been sitting on this but wanted to talk about so we talk about experiences a lot on CX, and you've had quite an experience. I didn't know this when I first met you. But I know you're a massive foodie. And you have been on Master Chef UK. Now I will provide a link to season 12 in the shownotes for anyone who wants to catch Katie's episodes. But what was that like? And how have you brought that experience into the work that you do today?

Katie Stabler: 9:21

Oh, my word. It was amazing. I mean, I will talk about this forever. I'll never stop talking about to anyone who will listen, I will tell you about it. It was six years ago now. And it's just one of those experiences which I think is on parallel. You know, I had no idea what it was going to be like going into but I loved every minute of it. And the competitive environment. I love being pushed. Now to be honest, it's kind of ruined me because I don't like cooking in the kitchen without a camera in my face. That is just meeting new people up and down to London. It was just so much fun. People often ask me if I was nervous or scared and just know loved it. So clearly I like to be centered at the center of attention

Rick Denton: 10:08

That's awesome. Oh, my goodness, well, I can see how that really would influence kind of your approach to business going forward, it had to have been just, it's an experience that I can't really even identify with, at one not having the opportunity, but then also not having the skills to cook or anything along those lines. But it had to have shaped you. You mentioned it six years ago, but I'm curious, how did that shape kind of how you approach things today?

Katie Stabler: 10:33

Oh, looking back, yeah, it was really about pushing myself, I am an absolute experienced seeker, anybody who knows me will know that I'm constantly after the new The next thing. I think life is too short to just keep playing the repeat button. And as it happens, I do love to cook, which is obviously what took me in that direction. Good, right. But it's all about trying new things, and being creative and being bold and brave. And they are absolutely qualities I advocate throughout my consultancy. So customer experience is about being creative. I mean, I love seeing organizations push the push the boundaries with the way that they communicate with customers. As a great example, not a client of mine, but a company that I've just started to have just become a customer of called the Republic of cuts, their customer is a cat food company. But their customer communication is brilliant. It's quirky, it's unexpected. And you know, they took a risk, and for me it works. So yeah, it's all about taking risks about being brave. And that continual cycle of test, iterate, learn, you know, so I guess that's where my experience of pushing myself going into Master Chef trying something new doing something scary. It's why apply to life in business?

Rick Denton: 11:53

Oh, my goodness, it makes so much sense. And I actually so I'm a little bit inspired by these years talking about here about risk and trying something new and being bold, in that aspect. And so I know that we've talked about how you've had the opportunity to focus on customer experience in an industry not well known for its customer centricity. So talk about being bold in an area that people don't really think about cx so I'm curious, how did you bring that? How did you bring that boldness? How did that? How did you bring that to the heart? How do you bring the heart of the customer into that world?

Katie Stabler: 12:25

Yeah, it's really interesting mix. So I worked for one of Europe's largest credit management companies, which most people will know that as a debt collection company. Yeah, debt collection, customer experience, they're not synonymous. And for me, bringing harm was easy, because it was really a matter of bringing in a true understanding of the customer and advocating that. And again, it was easy for me because I'd worked in the nonprofit sector for about a decade, and I've specifically supported individuals who've been experiencing financial difficulty, I started my background as a money advisor actually going to people's home, sitting down with them and working through the finances, right. So I got to see really closely firsthand the problems that debt can create, and in some cases, just the total devastation. So there's such a stigma around debt, and nobody sets out to become a person in debt, right. But society just doesn't see it that way. You know, there's a really, there's a negative perception around it. And so I worked with the company to not only demonstrate how beneficial an intended customer experience would be, but in that industry, how essential it is. Because these customers, they didn't want to be our customers and our actions, just the smallest of actions could have a significant impact on their day to day lives. From being annoyed, answering the phone to us to being petrified of opening the mail. It was so essential that we nailed customer experience. And that's what our team continually drove is just how important it was. It was definitely not a nice job in this organization, it was crucial that we got it right. And on the flip side, I mean it doesn't, it won't be surprising to you to hear that BIOS, trusting our customers and implementing self service functionalities that they could do themselves with their own privacy. By rethinking our communication strategy. We worked with the London School of Economics to think about how we talk to customers in depth and be more flexible with payment options. On surprisingly, our customers started to trust us more starts to like us more started to interact with us more and eventually stopped being our customers, which is not what many people want, but in our industry. It was we didn't want them to be our customers so when we could support them to say goodbye. It's the greatest day

Rick Denton: 14:58

So Katie little change of pace. Join me in the first class lounge and we will move quickly here and hopefully have some fun. What is a dream travel location from your past?

Katie Stabler: 15:10

Oh, it's got to be Singapore the most beautiful serene city I've ever been to.

Rick Denton: 15:16

serene now that I actually would like you to unpack that a little bit because that's the first time I've heard Singapore and serene reference together. Tell me about that because I would love to go there haven't had the chance yet.

Katie Stabler: 15:28

I've been to so many cities I've never been to a city so quiet and beautiful a Singapore. We actually went just before there was about to be a Grand Prix hosted there as well. Right? And it was still like the traffic noise. Hardly any. It was clean. It was just I mean, it was vibrant. Don't get me wrong. It's a great place to be. But yeah, it's just it's a city. I've never experienced the likes of anywhere else. It's amazing. Just Wow.

Rick Denton: 15:56

Oh, okay. Now, with that new description, I was already wanting to go but now I'm really excited about it. So what is a dream travel location that you've not been to yet?

Katie Stabler: 16:07

Alaska so the pandemic we were supposed to go to Alaska for my partner's 40th the pandemic hit Council, put Yeah, we're gonna track the national parks do the glaciers and somewhere I still love to go.

Rick Denton: 16:21

Well, I do hope that you get to go there soon. Another one that I've not been to. But oddly enough, my daughter got to go there this summer and came back with some spectacular stories. And some phenomenal shots and the beauty there is off the charts. So I do hope that you are you are able to get there soon. Now this is a tricky thing to ask a foodie like you. But what is your favorite thing to eat?

Katie Stabler: 16:43

is going to be so boring. But I could live off a pizza. I seriously, I've got a pizza belly, I can never get full of pizza. We've got like a pizza ribbon outside of the garden come rain or shine with that it's great.

Rick Denton: 16:58

Pizza is certainly one of my favorites. In fact, that is what the Denton family had last night. So you know it is one of ours. So on that flip side, what is the thing your parents forced you to eat, but you hate it as a kid?

Katie Stabler: 17:11

You know, it's kind of the other way around. I think they couldn't force me see anything. And I lived off jam sandwiches. That was all I would eat so

Rick Denton: 17:22

so you weren't forced into that. But that was the only category you're eating interesting. Okay, the jam sandwich. I like that

Katie Stabler: 17:28

The jam sandwich.

Rick Denton: 17:29

So one thing now we can't count the phone. Right? The phone doesn't count here. But what is one travel item you will not leave home without?

Katie Stabler: 17:39

Oh, that's gonna be a book. I don't get enough time to read these days. So it has to be well, no, it's probably at least three or four books, as many books as I consume on holiday.

Rick Denton: 17:54

Katie, earlier when you were talking about customer experience in non traditional areas, I know you also have spent time in the nonprofit sector. You mentioned that earlier. So I'm curious how do you see cx similar and how a cx different between the nonprofit and the for profit worlds.

Katie Stabler: 18:11

So when I worked in the not for profit sector, it wasn't in an official cx capacity. But looking back and digesting those roles, I mean, I just feel like you can't get more of an organically customer centered organization than our not for profit organization. Because the whole reason for their purpose, their existence is the customer. So everything they do is focused on making sure that that customer has the experience that makes out to interestingly, I have just stepped back into the world and not for profit. And one of my most recent clients was that it was enough profit, funnily enough back in the world of debt, so I can't get away from that lovingly. But you know, it was great, actually, because it shows how since you know, the 10 years has gotten where I've worked in not for profit sector, how actually they are following very much the trend of all other organizations and are very cx focused, that the project I worked on was a big user design piece. And it was absolutely priority that the customer had a good experience when using this new service. So I think they're perfectly positioned to be the strong cx leaders.

Rick Denton: 19:21

It does seem that that would be a sector that certainly has the heart for the customer, right that people go into nonprofit because they care that there's something that there's an issue or a topic or a problem that they're looking to solve and they care about. I do wonder so I'm curious about this because customer when I've talked to folks in the nonprofit world, there's been a couple definitions of customer one is the people that are being served by the nonprofit, but then another customer is also those that are helping to fund or that are donating to the nonprofit. Did you find that you were working with both of those worlds? It sounds like you were working with the customer. What was it like when you're working also with the donor side of the house and helping them have a for lack of a better term a good customer experience?

Katie Stabler: 19:59

Yeah, I think my experience is less on that side, although I suppose stepping into it slightly just before I moved out of the the nonprofit world, I guess it's, it's tricky because that almost comes into that reporting side and that ROI piece, right. So it's not as structured and formalized as ROI. But absolutely, the funders and donors want to be able to see that what they are doing is making a difference, or making a difference in the way that they want it to you are set out to so it does come back yes plays into that more business side of things where you're proving the return on investment.

Rick Denton: 20:35

But that's actually a really brilliant perspective. Katie, that's the first time like, I don't know if you can see my eyes, it feels like there's light bulbs popping off all around me that the idea of translating ROI right there, and that being the space where that ROI of CX is an important part of that. So thank you, like I'm sitting here going, Oh, I hadn't thought of that before. So I kind of like that perspective on the donors. And those that are helping fund do want to see that their their, their gifts, or whatever that might be are going to the best use possible. And using the principles that we talked about ROI of cx in play there makes a ton of sense to me. Now, I know that I've seen you post about the hard work that goes into running your own business. And trust me, I know about that all too well, myself. So you've mentioned the value of having a business accountability partner. Talk to me about that.

Katie Stabler: 21:27

Oh, my gosh, it's so needed. I think anybody who is a solopreneur, running their own business, or even working at a distance from people having an accountability partner is just crucial. And I don't think I truly saw the value until I actually had one or started a relationship with one myself. You mentioned her earlier, she was a former guest on your show, Sharon Boyd, customer experience, accountability partner,

Rick Denton: 21:54

very good partner to have, I would imagine,

Katie Stabler: 21:56

she is ineed she is a superstar. And it's great because we both have worked in very different areas of customer experience. So can complement each other nicely. But what is just so important is you know yourself, you run a business, it's hard work, there's so many different elements to it, you can just get very quickly get caught up in the weeds and sit staring at your computer for hours. And sometimes you just need someone to talk to about and to plan with. And as the name suggests, hold you accountable to what you intend to do. So we all know this to do lists that go on forever, and never get ticked off. Well, the accountability partner absolutely helps.

Rick Denton: 22:32

You have inspired me with that, both your posts, and then also talking about it now because you're right, I actually can think as if I look to my right, I could see my to do list and see the things that aren't ticked off and having someone sort of call me out on it. So I know where you're at, where are you with? Or where are you doing with that, um, let me go back to something that you mentioned earlier. So that role that you had, when you were both quality assurance and the customer experience side, I'm actually had a client, or have had a client in the recent past where what I'm seeing is that the quality assurance or audit or compliance, that that function can be used for great influence when it comes to discerning the themes that are either broken or going well. But it also can be used as sort of an attack. And so I wonder when you had both worlds? How did you because I'm think you had both worlds. And then the worlds were separated? How did you build that culture of quality assurance was used as a partner to deliver great customer experience.

Katie Stabler: 23:33

So in the organization, in particular, quality assurance was really what drove a lot of the organization's from a performance perspective. Okay, so because it was a regulated environment, and it was a contact center, everything was measured through quality assurance. And it meant that the way in which the contact center staff spoke with customers was focused on a certain core procedure, which wasn't necessarily focused on good customer experience, right? So what I suppose I had a unique perspective on it. And a unique opportunity with was to be able to bring customer experience into the quality assurance piece. So to make sure when we're looking at QA, it's not about Did you just say x, y, and Zed? But actually, did you make the customer feel listened to you? Or did you give the customer experience the experience that they should have had? So we enabled different cx metrics to come into the QA process, which was one of the elements we use to start to turn the, the organization's thoughts and feelings towards customer experience was a big cultural change. And that was just one of the tools that we use to support that.

Rick Denton: 24:47

I really appreciate that and want to use that because I've seen that work really well. When it's a partnership, hey, this is what we're hearing. This is what we're discovering, you know, and making sure that quality assurance, QC, audit, whatever it is, is able to not just check, did you cover the regulatory requirement? But did you actually have that heart for the customer? Are you connecting with them on an empathetic level? Did you railroad the customer, those kinds of things. And it's nice to see that kind of partnership there. Well, unfortunately, I think we're coming close to the end of our time, I could talk to you for hours, but let's close out with a travel question. So you and I have talked about planned versus impulsive travel. So I know the pandemic has put challenges on both. But in a world pre, and we hope post pandemic. Tell me about how you approached planned versus impulsive travel.

Katie Stabler: 25:37

I say mostly, it's been planned until a couple of years ago, when we decided to travel from Florida Keys, up to Boston, between a mix of Yeah, long trip over two weeks. So it was very slowly, mostly by car a little bit by train and flight. And it was, it was amazing. We had I think three hotels booked for three nights during that whole trip. Oh my gosh, we just Airbnb that. I mean, America is amazing for Airbnb is the value the quality. And I mean, the booking process was just so easy that, you know, given the tech that we had at our fingertips, it made it easy to do and it was exciting, and a whole lot of fun.

Rick Denton: 26:23

Boy, my so my 48 year old self is having anxiety hearing about that kind of impossible. I'm the one that gets the spreadsheet out and plans. Okay, so we're gonna be this place in Italy. There we go here, right, this train. I can't even imagine going without hotel bookings. But I do remember a day in my long ago passed when I was a backpacker, through Europe. And it was that same sort of, well, let's get on the train and go here today. All right, those kinds of approaches. And I do think you get a completely unique perspective. That kind of I'm I'm feeling I want to go check this out. So I admire you for doing that. I I also am amazed all the way from the keys to Boston.

Katie Stabler: 27:00

Yeah, yeah, it was brilliant. We just wanted to fit in as much as we could. So we did.

Rick Denton: 27:05

There are people who only do the keys or maybe the keys to Miami and you found let's do the entire eastern seaboard. No disrespect to Maine, you didn't make it all the way. But that was that must have been a brilliant trip. So Katie, let me ask you this. How do people with they want to get in touch with you if they want to have that cultivated approach to customer experience design? How do they get in touch with you?

Katie Stabler: 27:26

This way, find me on LinkedIn, it's Katie Stabler. Or you can visit my website directly which is cultivate customer experience.com.

Rick Denton: 27:34

Well, I will be sure and have those in the show notes as well. Katie, it has been wonderful talking with you, you have opened my eyes to customer experience concepts you've opened my eyes to maybe I need to be a little more impulsive with my travel. You've also opened my eyes to what it must have been like to be on Master Chef UK what a brilliant experience and and all of that that you have brought to bear. So Katie, thank you so much for what you've taught us today. Thank you for taking the time to speak with me here on cx passport. And I wish you the absolute best as you go forward in your cx journey.

Katie Stabler: 28:07

Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure.

Rick Denton: 28:12

Thanks for joining us this week on CX Passport. Make sure to visit our website cxpassport.com where you can hit subscribe so you'll never miss a show. While you're at it, you can check out the rest of the EX4CX website. If you're looking to get real about customer experience, EX4CX is available to help you increase revenue by starting to listen to your customers and create great experiences for every customer every time. Thanks for listening to CX Passport and be sure to tune in for our next episode. Until next time, I'm Rick Denton, and I believe the best meals are served outside and require a passport.