Rick Denton: 0:05

You're listening to CX Passport, the show about creating great customer experiences with a dash of travel talk. Each episode well talk with our guests about great CX, travel...and just like the best journeys, explore new directions we never anticipated. I'm your host Rick Denton. I believe the best meals are served outside and require a passport. Let's get going. Think of a time you've been able to work with someone really interesting. No I mean really interesting. Someone who consistently brings a new perspective and novel way of thinking and a suite of fascinating experiences. Today's guest Cliff Crosby of M res is one of those people for me cliff and I met when working on a client in the Boston region of the US and from day one he's impressed me there we were focused on transforming the in store retail experience for the client clicks direction and insight there were amazing this guy knows his customer experience especially retail customer experience maybe it's that soothing Scottish voice and accent the capture me but it's more likely the incredible experiences Apple Nokia and anybody know Nike town? How about Nike town in London Yeah, Cliff was instrumental in getting that launched driving all aspects of the retail customer experience from physical to human to digital cx. This doesn't even begin to mention his other businesses and the highly intelligent approaches to elements of team culture are truly advanced approaches to video algorithms and several other ventures. Wow, Cliff Welcome to cx passport.

Cliff Crosbie: 1:39

Thanks Rick. Good to be here.

Rick Denton: 1:42

Cliff I'm looking forward to this so you've been with global brands like IKEA Nokia and Nike you've been a part of opening stores of those brands all over the world what did you see as the different cx expectations across those cultures?

Cliff Crosbie: 1:57

You know, it's a big question all the time with brands now when they talk about you used to have back in the day with Nakia that everyone saw every country was different and everyone would try and gear the experience to a particular country you know things are done this way in my country. And you know, the truth is especially with Apple that the global formats roll out really well. So you know, you don't need to change anything from physical appearance in fact it's dangerous to do so because the brands are so recognizable as brands right? But quite what you do have to do and the very subtle things you have to do is more in that direct customer experience in the store. So any kind of local culture person to person interaction has to you know, and naturally does follow the local culture so the only things we used to adjust a lot especially when I'm thinking Nike as well was just you know, you couldn't get away with the Nike tone Have a nice day greeting all the time in some of the other countries where people are far more reserved right so you know you didn't kind of do that Disney at the door in London we kind of tried it but it didn't go down too well and you then come up with what what is the locally acceptable is it just sent high or whatever you know, but all these things so more in the people to people part not so much in anything to do with the format or that kind of thing?

Rick Denton: 3:30

So that makes a lot of sense to me that it would be at that human level and so how do you how do you actually get to understand that from a global perspective you as one person but then as a team you know, I'm thinking of even IKEA for example how did you dig into that with the IKEA understanding how did you learn from customers?

Cliff Crosbie: 3:49

Well, IKEA I think, you know, the, the the biggest challenge I faced in IKEA and I worked in quite a few countries with IKEA especially over Europe at first but then I moved to Japan and Japan in particular with IKEA was experiencing quite a challenge at that time. And that is if you take anywhere on the planet, that is going to be quite strongly culturally different. Then I think Japan probably hits about the top of the list are out. And for me because they they do live life in in quite a bit. And I say that from living there for for a few years, you know that it's it's a different culture to the rest of the world. And not a lot of people worldwide have kind of lived there. They may have gone holiday there. But it's it's a different place to live in. There's very clear things. And I care at that time. We're not doing so well in Japan. And I was brought on to help as part of that to come in and look at sales in Japan and see what we could do to help it. They were incredibly busy. It wasn't proper, a lack of customers. The story of Yokohama, south of Tokyo I think, is six and a half million visitors a year or something like that. So it's kind of on on par with any good theme park or something like that, you know, but that is exactly what we kind of found out it was. So lots and lots of Japanese going there, kind of looking at all the funny Swedish rooms, eating the Swedish meatballs, because they love that stuff, and buying some nice curvy objects downstairs in the market Hall before they left. But the we found out pretty quickly through a lot of research that it was actually like the number one dating place in Tokyo at that time, because it was kind of nice place to take your your new friend, partner, girlfriend, boyfriend, whatever. And you could go along there, it was quite cheap, cheap. If you like walk around, have a look at all the furniture. Imagine living in these homes, go and have something nice to eat and then leave you know. So it was it was a nice place to just go and get a very cheap first date, I guess if you weren't sure of that. But on social media, we found that was number one. And so you know, cutting a long story short there, it meant we had to really dig into what we called life at home in Japan. Because we knew there was something totally different about the way people were living the fact that they were not taken up Japanese furniture. And or sorry, IKEA furniture in Japan. And you know, we had a lot of discussions about Should we buy more futons? Should we do more furniture for tatami rooms and all this kind of thing? But my thought was, no, it's not. What the what we have in here, it's more how we show people how to use that furniture in their homes. So you know, we did a lot of research into I visited I think it was over 100 homes. In Japan, it was definitely over 100

Rick Denton: 6:58

Wow!

Cliff Crosbie: 6:58

And we just went in, you know, we either pretended we were looking for a place to buy. Or we just asked people directly if they show us their home, which should the Japanese don't like yeah, so yeah, to kind of fake a lot of that stuff. And we went in everything from houses to apartments, big apartments, although there's not that many big ones. And masses of these small apartments and kind of looked at all the issues these people have. And, and it comes down into the country, you know, earthquakes and lack of space, and all these kind of things that kind of put the where people live at home in Japan differently to the rest of the world. But what we did in the short term on the customer experience was we took the Yokohama store, and we rebuilt the showroom completely Japanese. So Japanese room sets, all the Japanese challenges of beams for earthquakes and tatami rooms and small kitchens, and all these things they use. And so took what that person's life at home experience was going to be and to get into the showroom. And that was transformational. along with everything else we discovered about how people in Japan don't like DIY, so they want put things together themselves, they maybe don't have tools to do it, you know, right. And they they want things delivered. Because a lot of people, especially in Tokyo don't have cars and all these things. But when we put that whole package together, including so assembly services, and all these kind of things, it just transformed the business. Because suddenly it was it was still IKEA, it was exactly the same product. But all we done was enhanced the service and show them how to use it in their homes.

Rick Denton: 8:41

And what else makes all the difference what I mean, it's such a, it's an oft repeated phrase, but it's sort of a brilliant application of it is go just go understand your customer and you took that to the extreme. Get in the customers Yes, go get go get into their life and then use your retail experience to be an expression of what that life is. I do have a bit of a chuckle. Here in the US. There's sort of a feeling that IKEA is where relationships go to die because usually people enter a couple and then they break up. By the time they exited. There's actually a 30 rock episode that focuses on that theme. So it's interesting for me to hear the reverse that is

Cliff Crosbie: 9:16

There's the trick Rick? Seems to be okay to go there on a date as long as you don't buy anything.

Rick Denton: 9:24

As it is very true, but listening to your customer help transform that and IKEA makes so much sense. It clearly is the path forward. So I know we talked about this wealth of experience kind of stepping out of just pure retail for a second and another one of your current ventures is this real estate company. It's focused on university student real estate. Now, I can tell you this, my university living experiences were nothing to rave about. In fact, my freshman dorm was actually officially condemned but the university convinced the city to keep it open one more year, my last year. So I've had some less than positive experiences but I know you're trying to change that. What's a channel little bit about how you're trying to change things there.

Cliff Crosbie: 10:02

Yeah, so it's, it's something, you know, I find hospitality and retail pretty close, you know, because it's all about customer experience. So I really started off back in the day originally in hospitality. So that's always been close to my heart as well. But in this particular opportunity for I'm working with a startup company, I'm one of the co founders. And we have a number of properties, and we rent them out to students. And there's a lot of countries that's that is seen as some kind of easy opportunity from a landlord just to get a bunch of young people and charge them some crazy rent, and fill the house with some crappy old furniture, and these guys will be happy. You know, it's, it's kind of, I think it's very different. You know, no, a lot of the student age, people are pretty particular about what they want. So we kind of looked at what that experience was, we talked to a lot of students that were already standard in some of the properties we had. And, you know, very simple things we knew we had to do really quickly. Like, awesome Wi Fi. Right? Yeah. Right. So you kind of think of the basics, if you ask them, What is the most important

Rick Denton: 11:13

forget furniture, I don't need that. I don't, I don't need running water. Just give me Wi Fi.

Cliff Crosbie: 11:18

Yeah, but furniture comes up pretty quick. Yeah, because give me a good bet, you know, give me a really good bet, give me a really good place to work, you know, the rest of the stuff I'm not so bothered about as long as it's clean, tidy, all these kinds of things. So we took these and then the other thing that we heard a lot was about community, I come into a country, I'm not connected, I have the students that are maybe having my class but I kind of want to understand the locality and where I'm staying and all these things. So that's really what we've been doing. We've just been building that kind of community of the people that stayed with us. And we've just been making sure the basic needs of a student a desk Wi Fi good bed, all these kind of things are covered plus fun, you know, like, you know, making sure they're all introduced come around for a beer after Yeah. And you know, kinda important caveat, people feeling good. Yeah. And just telling them about the country and educating them and making sure that their, their kind of life in the Netherlands is something they remember going forward. Well and that's a very different approach.

Rick Denton: 12:18

I like where you're going with that. And I think that's important I didn't mention that right? I'm talking to you that where you're sitting there in the Netherlands right now in the Netherlands, certainly as a hub for the globe, right folks have for centuries have come to the Netherlands and so there's always been kind of a global perspective and I would imagine that your customer your student customer is a part of that Global Diversity spectrum as well so how do you make sure that you and your team our students pun intended, have that diversity of a customer base?

Cliff Crosbie: 12:50

Well, we have to do the same thing so we have students from all over Asia America all over Europe come into here and our team is completely the same and we we do we run a lot of programs for students as well to come into the business and help us out as well so we're kind of mixing it up all the time. And you know, I'm the oldest one in there by a long long long way.

Rick Denton: 13:17

We don't put age in the shownotes no one needs to know

Cliff Crosbie: 13:20

everyone else is by far in the student market I would say so we've kind of got a lot of people that are you know not long have been students themselves as well so people that remember it one improve that experience but from all over the world so and that's the great thing about the Netherlands I think it is such a mix of all cultures in this country anyway. So it's it's a country as you say, that's very used to global travelers and welcoming people here and and we just take the time whether people will make sure we meet their needs. And it's kind of it's a very rewarding kind of business to be in, I think, because you're basically given people a home away from home for a good six months, year, in some cases, two, three years. And, you know, it needs to feel like a home away from home. So it's, it's quite a nice thing to do for people. So yeah, it's, yeah, and that's what that's where it is. And that, that business, I think, for me, working with the students is the kind of nice thing about it, I've always thought of things like, I call it reverse mentorship. So I was into that company because a lot of young guys wanted to learn from me. But the reverse mentorship is they don't realize how much they teach me. And I love that, that connection with them because you have to spend your whole life always learning and that for me, it's been is the reason why I work with these guys, but also the reason that I'm so passionate about customer experience because that's the best way

Rick Denton: 15:02

little change of pace here Cliff with the Netherlands being so known for international travel, sometimes folks are coming from a long way away, you and I have done some some traveling in our days. So sometimes nice, relaxed. So join me here in that first class lounge. We'll move quickly here and hopefully have a little bit of fun. What is a dream travel location from your past?

Cliff Crosbie: 15:22

from the past? That's easy. We enjoyed Bali a couple of times, and we'll get back there.

Rick Denton: 15:31

I don't feel like I need to ask the follow up here. But yet, Bali. I think we know why. But they tell me. I've never been it just looks so beautiful.

Cliff Crosbie: 15:39

Yeah. Beautiful, peaceful. Great foods. Just a beautiful place.

Rick Denton: 15:46

Brilliant. Sure. Sure. Well, that one in the past. What is a dream travel location you've not been to yet?

Cliff Crosbie: 15:54

I think it probably is New Zealand. Just because I've not been there. And I think for the nature. Yeah. And then the other the other one, we really my wife has never been to India, and she would love to go to India. I've been there many, many times, but not so much as a tourist and right loves to go there as a tourist. I think that's that's the main air.

Rick Denton: 16:16

Yeah, I've been there, too. My only travels have been business and it would be nice to be just the true tours. Now it's interesting. You've mentioned Zealand. That has come up quite a bit. And I think it's because I talked to a lot of folks for whom New Zealand is a long way away. And it's it's been interesting to when I've talked to Australians on this podcast that for them places like Fiji and Bali are as easy to get to as it might be for you to get to the coast of Spain. And these are trips to us. So we think of New Zealand as a bucket trip. And for them, it's just a little hop across the water. So it is interesting how your location presents a perspective on what your dream location can be. What is a favorite thing of yours to eat?

Cliff Crosbie: 16:57

Well, you know that's, that's lined up with the last question because it's Indian food. I've worked with a lot of Indians, I have a lot of Indian friends. I've had some amazing indeed. Especially the vegetarian for that. See, it's just unbelievable. So yeah, it's good.

Rick Denton: 17:14

I've made another mistake. So I've done this now a couple times that I record this podcast right around lunchtime here in the US. And every time we get to that question, my stomach starts rumbling might need to be a little Indian food here for lunch. And I'm liking that. So but on the flip side, what is the thing your parents forced you to eat, but you hate it as a kid?

Cliff Crosbie: 17:32

You know, probably mushrooms more than anything. My mother loved them. And I hated them as a kid. And yet no, I love them. But at the time it was wasn't good. But no, I don't think there's anything I don't like.

Rick Denton: 17:47

It is funny how tastes evolve. You are not the first guest to say I disliked x. And now I enjoy that same food. But I can see the kid looking at a mushroom going. Nah, I'm not eating that. Not including your phone. What is one travel item you will not leave home without.

Cliff Crosbie: 18:07

It's pretty easy for me because I always take a sketch pad. And I always love drawing as a kid. I've always loved drawing. And everywhere I go, when I get some peace and quiet. I always have a sketchpad, some pencils, and it's just a great thing to get off a computer and get onto something that's real in your hand, you know, and so I take that everywhere.

Rick Denton: 18:36

Cliff I know we talked about retail customer experience a little bit earlier. And I know it's an oft repeated phrase that retail isn't dead but boring retail is. So how do you establish a vision of customer experience and then executed in the retail space so that the brand is sort of elevating beyond dead and boring retail?

Cliff Crosbie: 18:57

Well, you you've got to have a good brand in the first place. Right? So if your products already boring, then you're probably so that's part of it. But then beyond that, it's like I mentioned earlier on I think it's people and you know, a lot of people ask me all the time about Nike tone in London because we recruited the team we did for there we went a very different way. And we didn't recruit anyone based on retail experience, okay, recruited them basically on passion for sport. And also also whether they had the, the attitude, so everything was about attitude. Because all this skills of running a retail store or working retail store we knew we could teach and all the kind of knowledge about product we knew we could teach but we could never teach the right attitude. So a lot of it was about making sure first there were sports people. And then second that that attitude was good and usually in sport kind Pretty good attitude as well. So we had, you know, if you visited that running department when that store first opened, you met someone who was skilled in running. Okay, so everyone, every department was full of people who were passionate about that actual sport, not only passionate played it, sometimes ridiculously high levels. Yeah, we had sub 215, marathon runners. And yeah, I mean, we really had a mix. But you know, and the basketball department was run by a basketball coach, and all this kind of thing. So that really made the difference, because then, every time a customer engaged with someone in that department, it was someone who was absolutely passionate about that sport, it just came across. And so it made the whole experience just far more authentic, you know, and that's something I've tried to take into everything you know, so when we've gone into Nakia, we've tried to find the techies. Same in Apple and IKEA, always, you've got to find people that are really interested in home furnishings and all these if people are passionate about what they do, then it's it's not hard to deliver a good customer experience, or what a soul through that people.

Rick Denton: 21:14

And yeah, what a great approach, right? So that recognize, and the thing is, so many companies will say that, I've been to places, I've been in a lot of companies, and you'll see things like people first or passion or those kind of things. But it really comes down to what you just said that hiring aspect of it and focusing on that so that if brand is x, do we have people that are truly fans of whatever that brand represents?

Cliff Crosbie: 21:36

That was that was it? And you know, I mean, you have to watch for the people that came in with squishies tattooed all over their bodies and things like that. But I mean, it just showed that they were, you know, the people who were truly passionate, but you had to find them because as you say, a lot of times you get people saying, Oh yeah, I want to work in retail, because I want to meet people and then you can every time you go to find them, they're in the stockroom. Or you can really find the people who genuinely do and that's the attitude as well. Yeah,

Rick Denton: 22:06

yeah, I think there there are days and times I think I genuinely like people, but there's definitely I might be back in that stockroom from time to time. So I'm probably not your best candidate at times.

Cliff Crosbie: 22:15

But sometimes in IKEA, especially when I worked in Bryant Park in London, a lot of times you would be run into that stockroom.

Rick Denton: 22:26

We all need our escape, there's actually a whole thread we could talk about of how you take care of folks and give them that escape. But let me let me kind of pivot back almost elevating away from business specifically. But I'm kind of you've traveled and you've lived all over the world. So you're one of the most global people I know. So I'm curious. It's such a generic thing to say, but I'm wondering how do those experience influence how you work and the work you do today?

Cliff Crosbie: 22:51

You know, I think you take all of that with you all the time, everything you've learned you do lower the even after living in Japan, people are not so far apart. And the basic things that we all want, are pretty much and when I say things we want, I don't mean money. I mean things like love, and happiness, and safety and all these kinds of things. These things that we all want, are pretty universal. And I think you learn by going around the world that people are everywhere you go or universally driven by certain core desires and the money thing, I think the money goes away very much when you travel around and see everything over the world and you've come more to, you know, doing things you love and doing the things you want to do and be in places you want to be in, you know, these kinds of things become far more important than any kind of based desire for solid trinkets that go with it. You know, it's I think he's just learned that people are the most interesting thing to be honest. And the interactions and connections we'll have, which is, you know, why customer experience or any kind of human experience and interaction is one of the most interesting things.

Rick Denton: 24:12

So I'm not I'm not surprised that you've been drawn to this world hearing you say that I certainly see that. And you know, when we've worked together in that focus on the human, I know that that's also really a part of why I like being in the customer experience world is just the stories that can be told the experiences that can be had. And I think you alluded to this kind of you mentioned the trinkets part of it. I think too, with a global experience like you've had and I've had a very limited like I'd say I'm 3% of what you may have done, but it does give you the realization that perhaps experiences are to be more valued than stuff. And collecting experiences is better than putting a knick knack on the wall or something along those lines. So I imagine that's been a part for you.

Cliff Crosbie: 24:53

When you think about it, that's what you usually talk about. You talk about your experiences really care so much about, you know, what's sitting in your driveway or the house you live in, or things like that, you know, I mean, and it's not everyone needs enough, you know, you need enough. It's just about, you know, focusing on the right things. And I totally agree with what you what you said, I think the collector of experiences as a far happier person, the collector of stuff.

Rick Denton: 25:20

There's a reason why you and I are talking. Because I've imagined we are very not imagined. I know, we're very aligned there. So I think we're kind of coming to the end of our time here, which is, but let me ask you, let me go back to Nike town here, because I'm kind of inspired by this international discussion a little bit here. And that is, so we think about Nike town in the UK being a global destination, like people will come there to obviously come to London as a global tourist, but then they will target UK Nike town as a destination, how does that change the approach to the retail customer experience when it's a destination in and of itself?

Cliff Crosbie: 25:54

And you know, the interesting thing I think, is gone forward? No, because, you know, Will these massive flagship stores stand up to post COVID? I think, yeah, that's going to be the interesting thing, you know. But certainly prior to that, yeah, I mean, it was always your chance as a brand to you, again, you were almost a little bit like a theme park type thing, you know, you would come into Nike town, London, and the staff in there had to be really geared towards, you know, you might be in retail, and everyday you walk out the shop floor, but every day is not the same. And for every one of these customers that probably is their first time and especially in a global flagship, and they have these expectations that I'm going to come into Nike town and being blown away. And so that moment of truth comes up. And do you blow them away? Or do you not see, we're very aware with the team that it was always our chance to kind of blow people away, or give them that, you know, exceed their expectation of what they were walking into naked down and not just go, this is it, you know, there had to be the interaction where you're from what you're doing here and, you know, find out all about them. Really take an interest. And, you know, that's your opportunity, his flagship stores actually do that stuff. And I think when brands do that, it's awesome. And it would be very sad if COVID kills that kind of flagship thing. But that's always the opportunity. you're you're you're a tourist destination in Europe, you know, and you've got to give that experience

Rick Denton: 27:30

that I too hope that COVID doesn't, ultimately when we come out of this pandemic, that we find that those kind of experiences because even even the stories that I've gone to there to fight, it's just it's a great experience. And it certainly resonates with the brand. And I do believe there's a financial return for the brand based off of that, but you're right, it's sort of uncertain, so we don't know, well, Cliff, we've come to the end of our time, which makes me sad, but I have learned so much from you. What I once again, love talking to you about is how you bring that humanity into the experience, talking about the people that you've brought in talking about going out and understanding the humans to understand those humans experiences so that you can influence what the store looks like, in a Japanese IKEA and how do you hire people who are passionate about sports that are true, and I'm shocked at a 215 marathon time I've run a marathon and I'm not going to tell you the time but you might just flip it on its head and you might get a little closer to what my time is. But it is it that humanity comes through and certainly your your approach to the globe has something I've admired and enjoyed learning from so cliff, thank you so much for being a part of cx passport today learned a ton and eager to see what's next for you in the future.

Cliff Crosbie: 28:47

Thank you. Thanks, Rick. It's been a pleasure.

Rick Denton: 28:52

Thanks for joining us this week on CX Passport. Make sure to visit our website cxpassport.com where you can it subscribe so you'll never iss a show. While you're at it, ou can check out the rest of he EX4CX website. If you'r looking to get real about custo er experience, EX4CX is availab e to help you increase r venue by starting to listen to our customers and create gre t experiences for every cust mer every time. Thanks for listening to CX Passport a d be sure to tune in for our ne t episode. Until next time, I'm ick Denton, and I believe t e best meals are served ou side and require a passport.