Rick Denton: 0:05

You're listening to CX Passport, the show about creating great customer experiences with a dash of travel talk. Each episode well talk with our guests about great CX, travel...and just like the best journeys, explore new directions we never anticipated. I'm your host Rick Denton. I believe the best meals are served outside and require a passport. Let's get going. One of the things that makes the customer experience community wonderful is the almost universal openness to connecting and sharing ideas. LinkedIn provides as you'd expect, a wonderful pathway to explore the CX world. That's how I came to meet today's cx password guest, Damian Miller. we swapped a few comments and ideas on a LinkedIn post a while back and decided to carry it further into a conversation. So with a few clicks and comments, I get the chance to expand my global perspective with another fantastic cx practitioner in the UK, it was clear that Damien had a deep desire to focus on the human in cx and a global perspective. You know, that's music to this podcasters ears. It's gonna be a fun ride with Damian today, Damien, welcome to cx passport.

Damian Miller: 1:17

Hey, absolute pleasure to be here.

Rick Denton: 1:19

And I'm really excited about it. Or, as I've come to learn the English say I'm chuffed about it. Myself, a new slang. But let's start off with human CX, you know, there's so much energy and rightfully so during the pandemic has been focused on digital transformation. It's required no beef about that. But there is a risk of losing the humanity when we do that. So how do you keep the human at the center of cx?

Damian Miller: 1:44

It's a great question. I think, as you said, there's been a lot of change towards a digital transformation. And that's been absolutely necessary. I don't think there has to be at the expense of kind of the human side of customer experience. I mean, you have to make sure that it is baked into your culture, I think, today we're going to talk a little bit about culture and a number of different ways. But you have to have people at the heart of your decision making. And I think that is about making sure that whatever decisions are made throughout your business, people, whether that's your customer, who you want to sell to, or people who are going to do that job for you. I really bought into your kind of customer strategy in your ethos and values that you show. I think too often they're kind of forgotten. And people have in the past that was required to make a change and maybe forgotten the Human Centered Design of what they were doing. And it's not that I don't like technology, I think technology can be a fantastic enabler and can enhance the customer experience. But as long as it has that customer thought process going into, is this gonna benefit the customer or not?

Rick Denton: 2:54

Yeah, that is, that's so true. And I've had my experiences with that. And the simplest one to describe right? I think a lot of us actually like bots, when it comes to a particularly simple transaction, I need to know a very simple, simple piece of information that I asked the bot the bot responds. But what I've seen sometimes is that bot and there's a comical example that I shared on LinkedIn A while back, but where that bot provides language back that it's clearly not the most human oriented, or almost there was one that had a bit of a snark to it. And it was a clearly an unintentional snark. But how language has such an important piece of that? Have you kind of tell me a little bit So as you've had conversations with companies and have been talking to them about keeping that humanity in it, what are some of the ways that you've helped them, make sure that the human stays at that center?

Damian Miller: 3:42

I think, particularly if you're if you are going to have interactions with customers is about, as you said, making it feel like you're one human to another human no matter what that is. And that's a large part about understanding the emotional connections that you're making with customers, however you're doing it, it's about making sure that empathy is a is a big part of your kind of way, you have language, you have understanding, you have all the markers that somebody will take out a really good experience there. And it doesn't matter them whether that's, as you say, a simple explanation that a bot can give you. And I have seen some studies that have shown people couldn't pick them out of a lineup of human and non human on very simple kind of FAQ type, right? things. I think the challenge is when you have a customer who is in is in distress or is in some form of something has gone wrong. It doesn't feel like the quickest, simplest and most customer focused way to have to go through that journey first. So I think when people can understand what is the journey the customer is on and the different points of that. And then what is the best approach to humanize that and have felt a kind of empathy and emotional connection on display.

Rick Denton: 4:53

Definitely hearing that empathy come through. I think that's incredibly vital and a key to the humanity there. Certainly. So Damien, I know that your experience includes large global companies. But now you focus on that smaller startup set. I think of those as having this incredible chance to get things right right from the beginning. So what have you learned from the bigs that help you advise the new the startup, the smaller set?

Damian Miller: 5:20

I think you started that with a perfect point. Now it's about the opportunity to get that culture we spoke about right, right in the center of the business. I know, we talk a lot about customer centricity, but to sort of bring that to life. I think one of the biggest challenges I've seen in those big legacy businesses that weren't set up, maybe with the customer in mind in quite the same way as you would today is how do you break down the silos? How do you get everybody's buy in on different departments about what is important from a customer experience perspective? Everybody play their part in that as well. And that it's all about desert desert, a clear set of values around the customer? is a clear strategy around how are we going to win new customers or grow loyalty? How are we going to improve experiences? And everybody's kind of linked into that? Yeah, I think that's a really big, big one. I mean, there are lots and lots of others, as well, some of which I think we're going to touch on a little bit more, because Don't try to chase a score is another one, you know, doing this, what is your reason for wanting to improve customer experiences, if it's genuinely we want, we want to be the best at this, we believe there is a competitive advantage to being the best offering not only great products and services, but in a way that people want to experience that. And it's all of those things. And I would say that a lot of the smaller businesses don't have big budgets to set up customer programs or big listening programs. But they could really do with the help. And in some cases, it's just coaching the senior people through saying, you know, a lot of this, it's in your head. Yeah, no one else knows this in your business. Right? So let's get it down on paper. Let's think about the whole customer journey from start to finish, how your teams are going to as you expand and grow? How do you expect them to kind of take that on that challenge of, of always being the best and offering great customer experiences? And how do you make sure that as you grow, you don't have to be in charge of everything? Because you can't be? You cannot be everywhere? But yeah, your values and your ethos to sing and be everywhere?

Rick Denton: 7:25

I'd like what you're saying there. What about pouring the foundation? Right? That's a sort of a very clear, right? So get that right? But there was something you said in there. And I don't have the exact words in my mind right now. But it was this idea of the company is smaller. So you're you're you're there closer, and you're you're able to work with, let me insert my words here, because it's it worked with the front line. And so you're actually at the smaller stage is the closest you'll ever be to your customer. So setting up not only the foundation of the culture describing, but setting up even the willingness and the processes and the approach, let's say approach instead of process the approach to make sure you're always listening to that front line as you grow and get further and further away from the actual customer. Having those tools in place.

Damian Miller: 8:13

Yeah, I mean, I had a really good example of this the other day, if it's okay for me to talk about I was talking to somebody owns a shop. And it's a local store that they want to open up to eight or 10 more of them. And they challenged me with how can something like what you're talking about help me? How can your customer experience kind of consultancy coaching helped me. And so we sat down, have very open conversation, guys got lots of ideas, lots of knowledge, but working in the retail business for a long time. Again, he's had small and large businesses. But when we started talking about once you span that control, how are you going to make sure you keep the standards you've built? Right? How are you gonna make sure that you keep customers feeling like they're part of a community, which is a big deal for them? And suddenly realized, actually, no, I do know of these but I haven't yet managed to to get that out. So it is that element of saying to somebody, you know this you've got this Yeah, you need to understand how to make this work as you grow

Rick Denton: 9:11

something Yeah, absolutely. And something you said when you were describing the the bigs and the smalls. And you know, as you get to the bigs, you've got the silos and that sort of stuff. And I was thinking, you know, company when they're at the small stage, when you're talking about discussion of roles and ownership and functions, it's just get things done, who's up who can who can do this doesn't matter what your title, your role is, you're just getting things done. And that is something fun at that stage of a company. But I imagine as they season as they grow a bit, that question of, well, Damien, who should own see x, comes up in discussions with you and I can imagine that generates some fascinating conversation. Tell me more about that. Oh, boy,

Damian Miller: 9:50

there's Yeah, I've gotten myself into a few interesting conversations and debates about about this one across across the internet, but also face to face with clients as well. I think one of the things for me, I think the word ownership, it's a completely semantic language that I think gets us into trouble. Because I think it's sort of customer experience in some ways, it's got to be a living, breathing entity within a business. So someone has to be accountable for it. And I think that has to be someone who can lead the way and can get the values and the culture in place. If I am a person, it might be a small group of people that I'm always wary of leading by committee. But people who can have that influence over those silos and over those departments, somebody can make sure that the communication through the whole business is engaging everybody in the customer strategy. And I think it's about them, making sure everybody has some responsibility for that part to play in it. So he took accountability and responsibility, I think you can't have everyone own it. That just gets confusing, right? Someone to lead the way. And hopefully that is, you know, an inspiring and motivating person or someone that everyone believes as well, right, believe that customer experience is important. But it's not a ticking a box. And it's not a fad. Actually, this is something we genuinely believe in. And it's because if you lead from the top, and then we know where our part to players within that, then you empower people to get the most out of that.

Rick Denton: 11:16

Yeah. And that that idea of almost, you're right about the semantics of the word ownership, because there's something about well, if someone else owns something, then it's not mine. They possess it. I don't, yeah, we hear terms like champion a lot. And I think there's a lot of value in that word as well, kind of describing the scenario where you've got that there's someone there that's that's pushing the agenda forward, bringing cx to mind, and driving things for championing it. But it's not such a scenario where it's like, well, that group does cx not my group. And I think there's there's definitely something to there in that. Well, let's do something kind of a pivoting here, let's pivot to travel. Because you said something interesting to me when we talked earlier. Your quote was, I like being a tourist. But I don't like tourists. Well, it got a chuckle out of me the first time but unpack that for me. What do you mean by that?

Damian Miller: 12:09

God sounds so terrible. Laid back. I mean, that way, it's a slightly flippant, slightly throwaway comment. But there is a sort of genuine piece to it. For me, travel is really important to me. And to my kind of big goal of unwinding. It's what I look forward to having these marker moments where I'm going to go and have these wonderful experiences. I think travel is so much about the experience, that if I go somewhere, and what I get is the tourist experience, I will feel like I've missed out on something, whether that be culture, the real people, the food, whatever it may be. And so I got this thing in my head was like, Oh, no, I don't know, just be ending up amongst a whole bunch of tourists. Obviously, realistically, you are always a tour. Right? Right. And so it wasn't meant to be sort of derogatory, I mean, everybody to feel some of that. But I think you know, it's about my personal experience of traveling and wanting to try and get as far under the skin of that as I can. Now, if you ever a week, that weekend, two weeks, sometimes that's quite tricky, tricky to do. But as long as you feel that you've had some enrichment from the experience that's different from the norm. I think, for me that that feels less touristy. So it's a bit of a flippant, throwaway comment, but there is something to it in terms of sucking the marrow out of that experience.

Rick Denton: 13:23

There is a there's a gentleman that's going to be his his episode will release actually after you and I have recorded this, but it will be before your episode releases. Dr. Tom DeWitt. And he and I had a conversation about just this, right. And it was this idea, he has spent a lot of time traveling where he immerses, and I mean, he gets deep into and lives in the culture for months on end, even talking about, I had a haircut in a new country each time so that I could experience what a haircut was like, you know, because we don't think about haircuts as tourists, those kind of things. And he talked about the richness that you gain from that I've got Imagine that. And we will I'm saving this for later. But I know you've got a pretty deep travel experience. But in general, the How do you find that depth when you don't get to have the long term engagement that you're talking about there? Right? If you're not traveling for months on end, how do you be a tourist but not be a tourist?

Damian Miller: 14:17

That is a difficult one to answer. Yeah, I guess because I kind of have these big signpost moments that I'm not having them every six months or every year even, it's not possible. I do quite a bit of research before I go. And I think being able to get hold of or find somebody local who can help kind of guide you a little bit is always useful. And again, going beyond the kind of the normal tourist activities and people who can show you a little bit of the real place. So even when I've had kind of tour guides, we did some market tours in Thailand, for example, when we had a tour guide because otherwise we'd have been horribly lost and bad things may have happened. But we were able to have that dialogue over sort of, you know, coffee feel something that they suddenly realized, or maybe these people would be more interested in going here than here, you almost ask the questions just be a bit forward, not not just to be passive, but say, you know, what I'd really like to do is I'd really like to understand, you know, where a great dish is made, or where a great kind of experience has had, or something that you might not see, everybody sort of sounds a bit, but I think it is just taking, taking a bit of positive charge for what you want to do and see, but in a, again, an empathic way rather than empathetic way rather than, you know, ordering order if needed to take you somewhere interesting. But if you express that interest in somebody else's culture and somebody else's place of being, then you connect better, and they want to show off those great things.

Rick Denton: 15:51

So a little change of pace here with those kind of trips, you mentioned Bangkok, you know, around the world for you. And for me both. Sometimes we need a little break. So join me here in the first class lounge will move quickly here, hopefully have some fun. What is a dream travel location from your past.

Damian Miller: 16:08

I really enjoyed it. The Maldives, for me was a big one, because I got some relaxation. But I also there was a lot of sailing and a lot of water based events to do so got a little bit of action in there as well as a bit of rest.

Rick Denton: 16:20

The Maldives are definitely on my future to know that it was part of your past. There's a lot of envy starting to use it right now.

Damian Miller: 16:27

It was very fortunate at the time to be

Rick Denton: 16:32

I subscribed to a lot of travel points, blogs and the like trying to figure out how to get myself to the Maldives. So what is a dream travel location you've not been to yet.

Damian Miller: 16:41

I really want to go to Japan, again, because it's so different culturally to kind of what I'm used to. And everybody my name is Dave and this has been really positive about that and say I know you'd love it. So that's a big one, as always like to do a bit more of Southeast Asia as well. I've done a little bit of that. But that's another one. I'd love to do more.

Rick Denton: 17:01

Get yourself there on the eastern hemisphere. It sounds it sounds wonderful. I've done I've done some traveling in Southeast Asia but never Japan. It is definitely on the list. I've got a son in university who is quite interested in studying abroad there and I kind of hope he does because I would be more than happy to visit him from time to college. What is a favorite thing to eat?

Damian Miller: 17:25

I mean, Thai cuisine is my favorite and overall food stuff. But I've had to pick one item left at one pizza fits all timezones, right? stuff of life. Executive cheese on toast, but it's wonderful.

Rick Denton: 17:42

That is very true. Well, on the flip side, what is the thing your parents forced you to eat, but you hate it as a kid.

Damian Miller: 17:48

I mean, I come from an Italian family, my grandmothers are telling me to eat all sorts of weird things. But mainly vegetables would be things that my parents would have to force me to eat. I like them now. But as a kid not so keen on some of the weirder ones. We had a household where you weren't allowed to leave the table unless you'd finished.

Rick Denton: 18:06

Yeah, definitely been there. Oh, my goodness. Well, thank we now as adults, we can choose what to eat. But a lot of times we do pivot to the more healthy that. Sometimes it would be better if we had some of that wisdom as a kid, right? So what is one travel item, not including your phone, of course that you will not leave home without?

Damian Miller: 18:26

Oh, that's interesting. Especially now you've ruled out phone, as if something I did used to have a wallet, which was sort of a bit of tongue in cheek but also there's a triplets I just have$1 bill. Because my theory was so many countries around the world, like trade that for a phone call if I was ever in trouble, a pound just so helpfully, I love American money. It just has a really interesting kind of old school feeling to it. We've lost it because now its plastic.

Rick Denton: 18:59

Let's go back a bit thinking back to that cx ownership discussion, knowing that it should be everywhere in a company. And this is a kind of a cultural question. Maybe it's a tactical one. But you know, how do you bring customer awareness to people in a company who just simply might not think they actually are customer facing?

Damian Miller: 19:19

Yeah, I think it's a couple of things to this one, I think, again, leaning on that culture, as I have done a few times, I think if you've got the values in place that highlight how important customers are to your organization, and you're sort of living and breathing those every day, and you're communicating with everybody in your company, and you make sure that your employee experience is exactly the same so customers aren't as important to everybody. And that you make it very clear that even if you're making decisions that don't seem like they might be customer facing, they may have implications and impact on your customers. And so you're making sure that in all thinking, the customer is always represented. Yeah, and therefore I think people just become used to it. It will be for someone to begin with, where they come from a company or an organization, or they're new, you haven't haven't been there. But you know, people are really adaptable. And they kind of learn from the culture of an organization. So if you have that in place, and treat everybody the same, so you almost break apart customer facing and not customer facing as, as titles, if you will, right. Everybody's responsible for the customer to a greater or lesser extent, we all have a role to play. These are our values, and what's important to us that, you know, we are looking at making all experiences as good as they can possibly be. I think that that's the sort of start point for it. And then it's about how you communicate your strategy, your plans and your achievements. So make sure everybody is you sharing, this is what we're doing. We're doing it, these are the results, here's what customers are telling us as to why this is important.

Rick Denton: 20:52

That ladder, anybody out? Yeah, well, and that latter part is one that I find so impactful is here's what our customers are saying, I have been a part of so many conversations where I might feel it. And that, you know, as a consultant, or even as an employee, when I've been inside of clients, or my own companies that I've worked for in the past, and I might have a strong opinion about this is the way it should be or shouldn't be. But then when it is the customer that says it is amazing how much more impact that has on what the company feels, or how decisions get made. So exactly that bringing that voice of the customer is something I love that you close there with that one that's so absolutely vital.

Damian Miller: 21:32

I think it's also remembering that wants to people who are working in your organization, their job might not feel like it's directly customer facing, they go outside the business and talk to people who might be customers go and represent that business. So having that kind of estimate thinking and that ability to be able to talk about that. Show the empathy again, and really kind of understand the customer vision of the company. That's gonna transfer that's gonna translate in conversation. So I'm not saying everybody goes around and talks about this to all my friends, but it will come up.

Rick Denton: 22:03

Now where you mentioned something in that kind of describing how to bring that customer awareness, and it was about you know, what are we measuring? What are we be able to talk about the stories or the impact and the results and that sort of stuff. And you said something to me earlier that I'd love for you to unpack in it is I don't care what you measure, as long as it results in customer impact. You've got great phrases, man, so I just want you to explore that one. unpack that one for me.

Damian Miller: 22:29

Thank you again for picking a topic that's gonna get me and I think what's really interesting is customer experience professionals is because there isn't really a one governing body or one approach that is the perfect way of doing something. You can get lost in a world of measuring things. You know, if someone wants to me what gets measured gets done. That's not actually been my experience. I think you can talk about NPS pros and cons. You can talk about cset pros and cons. You can talk about effort. All measures had some good points and bad points. I think it's about identifying which one is going to help you have the biggest impact positively for customers. Yeah. And how do you get to action? Because that's the only way anything changes.

Rick Denton: 23:14

That so right there sings my song. You said the word action? Absolutely. It is. And I definitely cut you off. But it's just because I'm so excited to hear Yes, action. I almost I don't care what your score is. Don't put it on a board. Don't put it on a wall. Just do something with it.

Damian Miller: 23:33

Yeah, I mean, by all means Be proud. And if you've made your improvements, you know, do think about it. But that isn't the end. To be honest, the end is closing that loop with your customers are saying listen, we've heard you we've done something, this is what we've done. This is how we use your information, your feedback, your voice to make improvements for you. Because data is so powerful. It keeps people giving you feedback for a start. And they don't understand in general customers. What does NPS mean? Yeah, nothing, right? But But hey, I come here now my experience has gotten better. This is something I look forward to doing or I go away and think, wow, that's that's make my day and that that fantastic thing to actually do.

Rick Denton: 24:18

You're hitting on it's funny the timeliness of when we're recording this. We didn't set this up. We didn't coordinate this. But Jeremy watkyn put out the CX Question of the day on Twitter yesterday, and it was about what our survey practices that you hate and wish would change. And a recurring theme. And the responses on that was I don't want a survey where somebody doesn't do anything with the information. So your closed loop feedback, your action, your improvement, all of those are so important to the overall customer experience, but just not having your customers go insane or want to torch and pitch Pitchfork, your company.

Damian Miller: 24:54

The whole value of surveys is something that's come up. For me that's where that's come from is that people Don't mind filling in a bit of a longer survey. If a you're asking me questions that matter to me and or about me and my experience, that'd be I know you're going to do something with it not put a score on the end of it. You know, I'm happy to leave you reviews, I'm happy to give you positive and constructive feedback because people do want to buy into the experiences they have, maybe not every product they buy. But if you have a choice between two things, and prices pretty similar, and one offers you a great experience and the other doesn't care, most people are going to say the easy choice.

Rick Denton: 25:33

Yeah, I think we've seen plenty of examples out there, I start to think about airlines and travel and hospitality, but we're not going to go they're not going to go there because we're starting to run out of time, I could definitely talk to you a long time about survey practices. And really this voice of the customer in general but let's close out with a conversation going back to the globe. You lived in India for nine months, but had to be fascinating to be a traveler but a long term one able to truly steep in the experience and culture probably going to just fold my arms lean back in my chair and I just want to hear you tell stories Tell me about those nine months in India

Damian Miller: 26:09

Yeah, I was very fortunate the company that I was working for the time was creating a kind of research hub in Bangalore in India, I wanted somebody to go out there and do some training and to help set up that and I got it was one of those where there was no way in which I was gonna say no to that, right. That was kind of combine a number of things that I'm passionate about one kind of research teaching methodologies learning helping people grow and to a whole new experience that was going to be nothing like my life and I got exactly what I bargained for in a really positive way it was I was welcomed into a culture that has so many rich quantities to it in terms of sights and sounds and colors and smells and brings all your senses to life. So really good on the experience front, right? Um, but it was kind of welcoming friendly, it was really positive, kind of and supportive. And the more that I tried to immerse myself into the culture The more that happened, the more people warned the more people wanted to show me their life and because I was showing a genuine interest right I got to see things I might not otherwise get to see I was invited to weddings if people are betting on that you know, I got to go and people wanted to sort of introduce me to their families and and it was it wasn't just because I was an exotic stranger from somewhere else right because there were more people doing this and lots of companies who were sending people over I guess the difference was that I was there saying show me more show before I and you do have to go a bit of rough with the smooth not not every place you get to sleep as is as comfortable that's very true Intel right. And I think what's really fascinating with it is it really helped me to understand myself better and particularly about communicating with people across borders and chipping away at some of the kind of assumptions you have in your head about the world The more I get to see if that the more that happens you know it's fascinating that as an English speaking society we built a lot of the world around being able to speak English back to us and I go somewhere and they could speak the language almost as well if not better than me and some of my friends and colleagues and you said think wow you know, why is that? How was that come to be? Yeah. But yeah, it was such a great experience is one of the best I think in my lifetime and that's helped me to kind of think about what do I want to get from other travel experiences as well so that sort of helped me cement the whole tonight I don't have to go for a beach holiday every year I'd rather save up maybe two or three years try and get an extra bit of time out of it and go to places that I'm going to find something different so it's set up a few different things that I've done since then that have been really positive experience

Rick Denton: 28:57

Yeah, what a great approach and I can even hear as I think through the conversation that we had you talked about going deep and listening in almost You didn't say it in this but almost being empathetic to the culture in which you're you're traveling and I can see how that not only influenced your ability to absorb and get into that culture in that travel experience and then influence future ones but it clearly has influenced your approach to customer experience and how you go into the business space and all the like and I have certainly found that travel presents that same kind of influence to me and how it influences how I go about business so Damien it is it is a brilliant story to hear. Let me ask you this because we have come to close at the end of our time here How can people get in touch with you if they want to learn more about you and your approaches? And just get to know you?

Damian Miller: 29:41

Okay, well they can go visit my website which is www dot intelligent purpose.com or they can email me which is Damian at intelligent purpose calm, and that's D Am I am or if they're really exciting, they can go on to LinkedIn and go find me on that.

Rick Denton: 29:59

Well, I'm pretty proud That that is a path that is one that can be met with a connection and the chance to get deeper in the conversation. I will put all of that into the show notes. So folks, you can see that and see that there Damian, it has been a brilliant conversation I love. I love talking to someone who has that heart for customer experience. And I especially love that someone has at heart for customer experience that is likely influenced by their global travels as that is certainly an area of interest of mine expressed over travels and these episodes and the like. But it has been a wonderful conversation. Damian, I appreciate you taking the time to stop down and have a good conversation with us here on cx passport. I wish you the best and the rest of your day and hopefully you get out there on the road soon.

Damian Miller: 30:40

Thank you, it's been a great experience.

Rick Denton: 30:45

Thanks for joining us this week on CX Passport. Make sure to visit our website cxpassport.com where you can hit subscribe so you'll never miss a show. While you're at it, you can check out the rest of the EX4CX website. If you're looking to get real about customer experience, EX4CX is available to help you increase revenue by starting to listen to your customers and create great experiences for every customer every time. Thanks for listening to CX Passport and be sure to tune in for our next episode. Until next time, I'm Rick Denton, and I believe the best meals are served outside and require a passport.