Rick Denton: 0:05

You're listening to CX Passport, the show about creating great customer experiences with a dash of travel talk. Each episode well talk with our guests about great CX, travel...and just like the best journeys, explore new directions we never anticipated. I'm your host Rick Denton. I believe the best meals are served outside and require a passport. Let's get going. Change. Or now, the oft used transformation, it's been around forever. It'll be around forever. It's vital for companies and even we as individuals to change and grow. But far too often, the process of change does not go well. Key needs of the human aspect of being an employee are often diminished, or perhaps more neutrally just overlooked. You think by now we'd be doing a better job overall of change. Well, that's what my guest today Christina Adda wants to help companies well change. I love her title on LinkedIn, innovator, strategist, and people centered change enablement partner. When I've talked with Christina, I've enjoyed seeing how truly human centered she is. This isn't just a catchphrase for her, she means that she lives it and wants to ensure that change in the future is always people centered. I also admire the heck out of Christina's global focus and experience. I can't wait to talk to her about her work and travel across the globe. Christina, welcome to cx passport.

Cristina Herrera: 1:35

Hi, Rick, it's great to be here today. Thanks so much for having me.

Rick Denton: 1:38

It's going to be fun talking to you from Texas, you're you're up there in New York, we got a little bit of a distance here. And so we'll we've got a little bit of that travel and distance vibe going. But I know. So let's just start with kind of timeout change in general, right? So so much of a company's ability to deliver a great customer experience comes from their ability to provide a great employee experience. It's cliche, I get it, but it's so true. You live in a world of change, and people experience in general, things that were perks before are now the norm. So with your focus in this area, how were you thinking about employee experience these days?

Cristina Herrera: 2:16

I'm really glad you brought this question up. And I love that part that you've mentioned the perks before. And now the norm. I feel like over time, the norm or what's been translated into the norm has been evolving, right choice and flexibility, then no longer perks. They're, they're a necessity, right. But not only for happy employees and to increase morale. But to acknowledge that real complexity of human life, I mean, we have lives outside of work. And the more we continue to ignore that, the more we lose touch with the human factor.

Rick Denton: 2:54

That, that that idea of I think what you're saying that losing that touch with the human factor, I think what I'm hearing is it's sort of, you know, we hear posts about wellness, or snacks or cool employee culture vibes in that. But that's not getting at the heart. That's not getting at what you're describing there. So if we want to do this, right, if we do want to get that aspect of employee experience, right, where should company where should a company really be focusing?

Cristina Herrera: 3:22

Well, I think what's really interesting is, you know, a great experience is not an event. And if I try to just, it's funny that we're having this conversation, because often I do this thing, and it's called real talk. And when I have this conversation is real talk conversation with my clients, what I'm doing is Stop, stop having this conversation in the context of work, and let's bring it out into our real lives, right? Let's have this real discussion. If in your personal life, you were feeling overwhelmed, or down or whatever that might be someone telling you be happy, is not going to work. Someone just buy you a coffee is not going to work. So why do we think this approach is going to work in a workplace, this is very similar to a one off event, or let's just buy a ping pong table. Well, let's just host a happy hour. And I think this is where we keep getting it wrong. We are humans a one off event is not going to solve for what constitutes as an experience.

Rick Denton: 4:27

We there's there's a thing in my you can hear my brain the synapses, you've already kind of frozen a bit. Because that idea of the event, and it made me think of the ping pong table when you said that I'm imagining the virtual company brochure right come work for us, and how often do we see that in the ping pong table or those kind of things describing their employee culture? I mentioned before we started recording here that I had just had the opportunity. My wife and I traveled to do some college tours this weekend with my daughter who will be up Approaching going to university a couple years. And since she's our second child, we've seen the difference with our first child, the college tour brochure version of college. And the we're living it and experiencing it type of a college experience. And I have to imagine that's the same in the work world, the ping pong is the event. But that's not actual employee experience. What does it take for a company to get this right? Where do they need to be? How do they motivate beyond just being events?

Cristina Herrera: 5:28

I think they need to think about the full experience, right? We are constantly encouraged to bring your whole self to work, bring your whole self to work, we need to actually meet them out the door. And how do we think about them bringing their whole self to work from the moment they walk through those doors to the experience going towards, you know, their chosen workspace to how they transition or collaborate with people either in that location virtually in another location, we really need to think about it from an ecosystem standpoint, and how we're actually enabling and empowering those colleagues to have that great experience.

Rick Denton: 6:09

So let's let's expand on that a little bit. Because I know you have had this just fantastic global experience. And listeners may hear your accent, right? Your accent slightly different than my accent I think we can agree on. And so there is a global, both just culture and experience that you bring to this. And you've seen how that drives change across geographies and cultures. So what's different? How have you seen that approach be different across these various cultures across the globe?

Cristina Herrera: 6:37

Yeah, I would say I've had the privilege to work across, you know, Australia, the US, UK and Asia. And that in itself is a privilege to have that experience. And what that has taught me is that while humans respond to threat and reward in somewhat similar ways, cultural differences matter. And we cannot ignore those cultural differences. And I was on a transformation project, and we rolled it out globally in those locations that I mentioned. And even though the overall strategy and what we were trying to achieve remained the same, we had to make it locally relevant in each of those locations, from the way we communicated to who the message comes from, to how we actually share information. There's a lot that is often overlooked at the cultural level. And, you know, when it comes to change, we can't ignore that. That is the heartbeat of the experience for those employees.

Rick Denton: 7:46

Going to that transformation project, if you're willing, I would love to know maybe some things that unless y'all got it all right from the beginning, but it'd be interesting to know what were some areas that were some of those learning moments of oops, wait, this What didn't quite fit that culture? Or, you know, tell me some of the ones of man, we really nailed it when we did something completely different in Europe, as opposed to Asia, Americas versus other regions?

Cristina Herrera: 8:08

Absolutely. So we definitely did not nail it. There's definitely a lot of learning curves here. The approach that we took, for example, in Australia, and in the UK, was both leader lead and grassroots lead, right? So we were driving, how can we walk the talk and encourage adoption and encourage mindset change from both, you know, grassroots going up, leadership coming down. And we tried that approach in Asia, and it just did not work, okay. The cultural differences in Asia made it impossible for a grassroots effort to occur. Culturally, the hierarchy, and status and respect is perceived differently. And you do not take a grassroots level, especially in this particular organization that I was working with, because it was seen as disrespect, everything had to be leader led.

Rick Denton: 9:17

Did that?...So your perspective coming out of an Australian and probably also kind of, you know, Western sort of perspective in mind as well. That can be hard for me to get myself in that mindset, because we've spent so much time in the Western culture really trying to almost tear down hierarchy as a as a work model. And have that be something that hierarchy we talked about bottoms up, we talk about servant leadership, those sorts of things. How did you help even just yourself, make that mental shift to be able to operate and support that culture knowing that it didn't match your home culture, your sort of native way of wanting to do things?

Cristina Herrera: 9:56

Well, it was tricky and the only way that this was possible. It is By getting into the project early, right, if we try and get into what right towards the end when the change absolutely needs to be delivered, that's when you know, you've already kind of shot yourself in the foot because there's no time to really acclimate to the culture and adjust and understand. You know, we all know that the most common form of communication is miscommunication.

Rick Denton: 10:23

that there may be the show title right there.

Cristina Herrera: 10:28

You know, no, knowing that you just you've got to spend the time to speak their language. And the role of a change practitioner is not to tell is not to teach. It's not speaking to people, it's making it understandable. And the only way you can make make it understandable is if you speak their language. Brilliant.

Rick Denton: 10:52

I like that. I may want to go into that a little bit later talking about kind of the right timing and that aspect of when to really work with with change. But I've got travel in the brain here. And you know, that's how I like to roll here with six passports. So one of the things that I've always admired about Australian culture is the wanderlust that I see in so many people there, it seems like, wherever I travel, I will always find Australians travelling there as well. And I know that you took a three month backpacking trip across Asia, which blows my mind, I just let me kick back. Tell me about that trip.

Cristina Herrera: 11:24

It was an incredible trip. I would say travel is part of the DNA of every Australian, we are encouraged to travel maybe it's because we're so far from you know, other areas of the world and we're on a big island, I'm not gonna say little island is a very big island. But that that backpacking trip was so wholesome and humbling. Again, just to be able to do that is a very privileged thing to do. And I'm not going to get the order, right. But we backpacked across Thailand and Vietnam. We went over to Hong Kong, Cambodia, Lao and Bali. And we took our time. And I think what is the most inspiring thing about this, this whole trip is, is that humbling component? Right? When I think about, you know, where happiness is, for me, what I took away from that is happiness really belongs in the ability to belong, and to have a human connection and to be understood. To listen to understand other people, right, really see people and hear people when they're speaking to you. I think that's, that's what made a big difference in my interactions as well throughout this backpacking experience is it wasn't just about me having a fun time. It was about me wanting to learn from other people.

Rick Denton: 13:00

You that slow travel has actually come up a couple. A few episodes, when I've talked to some folks that are really seasoned though, the third that backpack on, I think it was Dan velikovsky, way back episode four, or five, six, I've lost track, he was way early on, did a similar like very slow travel. And I came away impressed. And I'm hearing the same kind of thing in what you're describing Christina in that it has helped shape a lot of even your approach to other humans, right. But even in your specific business. And I'm curious, how did that trip almost specifically that trip affect you how you approach change today?

Cristina Herrera: 13:37

It's funny, because that trip was almost the catalyst of me getting into psychology. Yeah, before that, I was a high school teacher, right. And it was great. It was absolutely great in my high school teachers everywhere. But my passion, really, I found my passion in psychology and the neuroscience of change after going on that trip, and it's because of the learnings through that you know, degree and through that trip that I have really decided to I don't know another way to say it, cut the BS of business, right? And just get to the heart of the people. And I think more companies want to do that need to do that.

Rick Denton: 14:33

Okay, so three months of backpacking, clearly, there were moments that I guarantee you wanted to have a little bit of rest and maybe even a little taste of luxury. So let's uh, let's let's stop down here in the first class lounge and enjoy that restaurant a little bit of that luxury. Let's have a little fun here. So what is a dream travel location from your past?

Cristina Herrera: 14:53

I would love to get back to Bali and get centered again. Bali has such Such a beautiful way of reminding you that I am not what I do, right? I think a lot of people, especially in our industry, tie who they are to what they do for work. And Bali has a really nice way of bringing you back to yourself. Both you know, the people and the environments and beauty and the nature you just remember who you are again. Oh, that's

Rick Denton: 15:25

nice. Man. I almost want to stop here. But I have too many other questions that I want to learn from you. But that just makes me want to sit here and think about being in Bali and becoming centered. Let's look to the future. What is a dream travel location you've not been to yet

Cristina Herrera: 15:38

Egypt. I am in awe of the engineering genius of that time. I see it in person.

Rick Denton: 15:45

It is that having been there I will say it is something shocking when you're standing at the base of a pyramid and thinking just simply how those words just kept coming to mind how I hope you get there soon. Make every make every effort to get there. You'll also be a little surprised by the images you see of the pyramids and the like and how they seem so remote and yet the city is right there next to it. So it is a weird just juxtaposition. Let me get my words out here between modern and ancient and it really does start to play with your mind in a really fun and creative way.

Cristina Herrera: 16:23

Wow.

Rick Denton: 16:24

What is a favorite thing for you to eat?

Cristina Herrera: 16:27

Cheese 100% cheese.

Rick Denton: 16:31

You and I are now best friends

Cristina Herrera: 16:33

Yes.

Rick Denton: 16:35

Any particular favorite?

Cristina Herrera: 16:38

Um, I really love a good stinky blue cheese. And my brain. Yeah, yes.

Rick Denton: 16:46

You spoke of backpacking, so I did. Mine was a lot easier. I wasn't as courageous as you I did a month long backpacking trip post University in Europe. But budget required that certain meals would be a little more budget II and many of the meals were nothing more than a jug of local wine, a loaf of French bread and a hunk of cheese. And I came to realize live on this. Yes, me too. What's the opposite side? What's the thing your parents forced you to eat? But you hate it as a kid?

Cristina Herrera: 17:13

You know what I actually I can't think of anything. I my parents traveled a lot while I was a toddler. So I had the advantage of like, getting exposed to a lot of different foods. I don't think they forced me to eat anything because I was a willing participant at all times.

Rick Denton: 17:30

I wonder if I asked your parents the answer to that question if they might have a few stories of some food resistance, but we won't. I won't go digging there. What is now you can't say phone. You can't say passport, but one travel item you will not leave home without?

Cristina Herrera: 17:45

Oh god, this one's tricky. Um, I guess I'm kind of tied between sneakers because I love my comfort, right? with comfort, like comfortable shoes, I could do anything. I always feel like I could be anywhere do anything. But also, my Kindle loaded with a great book.

Rick Denton: 18:07

Christina, we, you've talked about this a little bit earlier, I worry about hierarchy and and how change kind of manifests. And historically, and I'm not ignoring the differences of culture here. But it does seem that change has been something very top down driven. And I know you've talked about in general, how that approach had there's opportunity for improvement there. And I'm wondering, thinking of that top down, how do companies need to evolve to be better at change?

Cristina Herrera: 18:37

I think this is a almost like a two part question. I would say initially, you know, businesses, they need to understand that a change project, whether it's a new it software implementation, a merger and acquisition or a refurbishment project. It's not a refurbishment project, or it's not a change project. It's a business project. So we need to take an ecosystems approach and think about it at a more organizational level. So yes, top down top down all you want on these individual projects. But if it isn't thinking about the overall experience and overall changes that are happening in the organization, it's always going to feel pigeon holed and slightly unrelated or unrelated ball. Yeah. And I guess the second part is, you know, what I harp on about all the time. There's that old adage that says 70% of all change, initiatives fail. Now that's just an excuse at this point, right? Right. If we continue to do the same old things in the same old ways, it's just an excuse. We can't expect a different result. And there are some really innovative companies at the moment that I thinking differently and incorporating more human centered approaches and design thinking into change management strategy. Development, right? And that makes a really big difference. I've seen it myself, I've I've gone and I've invested in myself and done my training as well. I'm a huge advocate for it. Everyone else will tell you on LinkedIn and everything. I'm a very, very big advocate for human centered change. Yeah. Um, but I am an advocate because it works.

Rick Denton: 20:26

Right? This isn't just feel good. Oh, yeah, yeah, humans, rah, rah, but rather, it's effective.

Cristina Herrera: 20:31

It's exactly and and it's not about the rah rah, it's about you know, when I, when I speak to CEOs and CFOs, it's about your people dependent return on investment.

Rick Denton: 20:44

Oh, people dependent return on investment, the petroi. The acronym, you may have just coined a new metric that companies are going to start following That's fantastic.

Cristina Herrera: 20:57

Yes, if you know, if your change project or business project requires your people to think feel or do anything differently, then there is a component of your return on investment that relies on people. And so you need, you know, transformation management or change management, whatever you want to label it or call it. You need someone there to think about how humans adopt change the psychology of humans, and to vote to develop a plan that's integrated into your organization to support that,

Rick Denton: 21:33

that is so astute. I think that's a shout out to Andrew Butow, who, who actually introduced us and I think that's why Andrew and I got connected, I'm not a change expert, right. That's not my space, I'm in customer experience. But I think there's a lot in our worlds that have that similar overlap, and that it's a this focus on the human and, and I'll go back to kind of you know, it's not just the rah rah, sometimes even cx gets, though it's the fluffernutter sort of thing. But the change is actually driving an actual return on investment is people driven element of it that I like, what you're saying is, if you're doing something, and it requires humans will then guess what you better equip those humans and support that change that those humans are going through in the best way possible. Now, speaking of humans, one of the things that when you and I got to talking, even when we even scheduled this, it's, hey, I'm working with the UK. So I got to keep my mornings clear. So maybe we can talk in the afternoon, all those sorts of things. And I know it's fascinating work with a globe, I've had that chance, I love doing it. And I know it must be fascinating for you. I'm curious what it's like for you, but then also almost tactically, how do you manage those interactions and keeping everyone connected and engaged? What does that look like?

Cristina Herrera: 22:41

Um, I would say the first step is to really start to build a connection with everyone on your team, and just let go of the titles, let go of, you know, all of that kind of stuff that gets in the way. You know, transparent conversations, digital tools are honest, and transparent. knowledge sharing, is just so critical, critically important, you have to remember that what people at the end of the day, we do want to belong, but we want to belong in a trusted and a safe environment. Yeah. We don't want to belong to a culture and environment where I feel like I need to protect my work, or that I'm not going to get acknowledgement or I need to, you know, it's a dog eat dog world like that. That's not an environment where people thrive. So I mean, it's a variety of things. It's both the team dynamics element, as well as those digital tools. But I would say team dynamics is first and foremost, the most important thing, it's one of the, I guess, services that I offer, through my business, through the through the leadership coaching is a team dynamics workshop where you know, what we're we're focusing just on how to create teams that are cohesive, that work together that feel safe, that trust each other. And ultimately, if you create that environment, you can manage across time zones.

Rick Denton: 24:12

What I appreciate about what you said, and it actually if I think back to some of my first global teams, elements, I didn't get this right. And it was that building relationships part right off the bat, which is a little odd for me personally, is that I tend to start with building relationships. But there was a shyness, I felt awkward, I was uncomfortable. I didn't want to make any cultural mistakes or those kinds of things. So I wasn't I was a little more guarded. And I think your team dynamics aspect and the relationship building that you're describing right there in the front, has to be almost more so then when you're dealing with a unit a monoculture or even a mano geography. But really getting the team dynamics right when it is that different cultures, different geographies, different time zones, all of that, that goes into that has to be incredibly important.

Cristina Herrera: 25:03

Yes, absolutely. And I would say that celebrating our differences is probably one of the biggest elements of team dynamics is celebrating how we're different. And welcoming. Yeah, the difference.

Rick Denton: 25:18

It's funny how I sort of expose a little bit of that of my background of it. That is, it's not that it wasn't a dislike of another culture or anything like that. It was just a shyness, like I just didn't want to make, but who I maybe I didn't even want to acknowledge the difference in the culture and and what you just said, there's exactly right, celebrate it, don't just worry about oh, we are different, but rather celebrate and be excited. Now thankfully, we're talking about like, 15 years ago, and in my background, I've learned a lot since then. So please, please, listeners, don't judge me, I promise I'm a lot more willing to. I've learned a lot over my years. Well, Christina, it clearly is important to engage someone like you, when you're looking at a company, a change, a big transformation, something like that. But I know that you mentioned earlier that sometimes you're brought into the conversation a little too late, when should companies be reaching out to someone like you.

Cristina Herrera: 26:12

So the best time to reach out is when you identified that there is a gap, right? Or the or that there is something that you'd love to solve for an opportunity you'd like to, to achieve. When you've already identified that there's a change happening, and we need to announce it, that's too late. Right? So in order for it to actually take that ecosystems approach that I mentioned before, getting in as early as possible and be a part of the creation of the solution is what is probably going to have the biggest protect predictive for success. And addition to that, you also have the opportunity at that point to decide, do you need someone like me to be there the whole time and support the whole transition? Would you like to build internal capability as well, in partnering with someone like myself and Andrew fuse heard for Earth to Mars, right, where we're building internal capability? And and what's the best solution for you?

Rick Denton: 27:15

Yeah, yeah. You've said something that is so like, it just resonated with me. And that is, if you already are in the midst of it, then it's too late. And I think that's sometimes where you're like, Oh, no, let's just get our communications right. Well, no, that that is only one piece of overall change. And the idea of when you're thinking about doing something that's the right time to engage someone like you and the work that y'all do, you and this the change community, it's so important to getting it right that people driven return on investment. Well, let's do this. And Christina, sadly, I've got a whole host of things I'd want to ask you and talk to you about. But we're out of time. But I do want to make sure that people know how to get in touch with you if they are looking to engage with you. What's the best way for folks to contact you to learn a little bit more?

Cristina Herrera: 28:00

Well, I'm always open to a conversation on LinkedIn, you could find me there, Christina Herrera, or you can check me out on my website. It's www Kristina Herrera consulting.com. I know it's a mouthful. You can pop it into Google. But always happy to have that conversation. And always welcome a challenge as well. I'd love to understand you know, where people stand when it comes to different ways of doing change?

Rick Denton: 28:28

Well, that's awesome, Christina. And I will get all that into the show notes. anybody listening, just check out the show notes. And you'll be able to get those links straight up. And I will, I will second Christina's a great read on LinkedIn, such great content, there's some really good insights and is a fun person to engage with on the platform. Well, Christina, you've been a fun person to engage with on this platform as well. I thank you for taking the time. Thanks for walking me through some of the the elements of change. We hear it it's a word that's often used. And I think it's another one of his words that people tend to think that they know everything about it. And when really they probably know almost nothing about it. And hearing from folks like you are how we'll get to learn a lot more about it. And thanks for you know, talking about your your trip through Asia that it makes me want to rediscover that slow travel. I'm at a stage of life that slow travel may be showing up in a few years, and your stories and inspiration to me. So thanks so much for being on the show. Christina enjoyed it. It's been great. Go out there and make some great change. Thanks.

Cristina Herrera: 29:28

Thank you so much. Thanks for having me.

Rick Denton: 29:33

Thanks for joining us this week on CX Passport. Make sure to visit our website cxpassport.com where you can hit subscribe so you'll never miss a show. While you're at it, you can check out the rest of the EX4CX website. If you're looking to get real about customer experience, EX4CX is available to help you increase revenue by starting to listen to your customers and create great experiences for every customer every time. Thanks for listening to CX Passport and be sure to tune in for our next episode. Until next time, I'm Rick Denton, and I believe the best meals are served outside and require a passport.