Rick Denton: 0:05

You're listening to CX Passport, the show about creating great customer experiences with a dash of travel talk. Each episode well talk with our guests about great CX, travel...and just like the best journeys, explore new directions we never anticipated. I'm your host Rick Denton. I believe the best meals are served outside and require a passport. Let's get going. Grab a pint because today's guest comes to us from the wonderful Emerald Isle. Today I have the joy of speaking with Jeff Sheehan. A Fantastic CX advisor from Dublin, Ireland. Well, actually, Jeff is from the US. But now he's living in Ireland. He brings a really interesting perspective on customer experience that I am eager to hear today. Recently, Jeff released an excellent book on a holistic CX management program titled, Customer Experience Management Field Manual, The Guide to Building Your Top Performing CX Program, leveraging the disciplines he learned from 27 years in the customer service business. Jeff offers a book not made for the navel gazer, or the ivory tower, but rather a book that you can sit down with step by step and create a CX program. This truly is the field manual. So at ease listener, let's listen from Jeff's wisdom. Jeff, welcome to CX passport.

Jeff Sheehan: 1:30

Thank you very much. Thank you so much. I appreciate the invitation to be here.

Rick Denton: 1:34

It's gonna be a lot of fun. So, and for my listeners, I'm just going to say this right off the bat. I'm sorry, the voice is a little scratchy. Yes, there was a little bit of a, a Corona going through the Denton household. And but all is well now... Vaxxed boosted, we're all better. So Jeff, thank you for tolerating the scratchy voice listeners, I hope you tolerate that scratchy voice as well. But we are talking now. Well, thanks kind words. But we all know the truth. But so we're here to we're talking in mid January, which is still reasonably in the new year period. Right? People are still saying Happy New Year to each other and Happy New Year to you, Jeff. So I know it's the new thing of resolutions heading to the gym trying new approaches. I imagine that's true of CX as well, what's the new year resolution to CX look like to you?

Jeff Sheehan: 2:17

Oh, that's a great question. And I know, you know, a lot of folks spent their last quarter assessing are closing out the year and then enjoying the holidays in a bit of a break. And so now in January, and probably into February, there is this assessment there is this, you know, what are we going to do? And it's re examination plans? And to answer your question, I would, I would always recommend you do a CX audit. And in the book, I have a whole chapter on what a CX audit is includes, and but just a comprehensive top to bottom examination of your last year in the CX program, and then look at those areas where you want to mature and move forward. And if you haven't got a maturity plan, for example, a CX maturity plan, that's a great place to start to sort of understand the now where how roadmap if you will of your CX program, so you know where you are now, where you want to go. And the step you'll take this this coming year, this 22 year, in terms of, you know, the things you want to improve on, maybe it's a skill set around data, or it's, it's a skill set around building that gearbox in your organization to convert insights into action, and then measure the impact of that action. But I think just the general idea of a CX audit is a great place to start, you know, a year

Rick Denton: 3:42

in and that fits totally with this resolution, because that really is what a lot of folks are doing at that point. They're taking stock, they're taking that assessment, they're they're self auditing, whether it's their their waistline, or whether it's their their willingness to read, or it's their desire to see some new data, they're taking an assessment of where they are. Now, you mentioned that book, I would like to talk a little bit about that, because that that audit is just one piece of it. But the whole concept of this field manual, right? Clearly these military years of your experience influenced your approach to customer experience. I'd love to know a little bit about your time in the military, but really, how did that influence and help you identify the need for a field manual? For CX? Yeah,

Jeff Sheehan: 4:24

yeah. So um, I spent 10 years on active duty in the US Army, and I was a helicopter pilot and officer and that was, you know, a lot of fun, right? I get to fly in Korea. I get to fly in Germany to fly in the Sahara Desert. I get to fly in Paraguay. I had a lot of fun and but you know, I mean, they were hard days to court very uncomfortable. Can circumstances and things of that. But, but in the military at that suited my personality was this getting organized and what I found I was good at in that in those years and that initial crew was just really good at building things from the ground up new, or fixing things that were just broken and I couldn't, I could fix them. So as I moved into the commercial private sector, that was the kind of work that I looked for, and I was quite good at was building something new, or fixing something that wasn't performing as it should be an all around customer service operations, right, whether it was field service, or depot service, or consulting with customers, clients who needed that same sort of treatment to improve. And then as I moved into writing a book, there's a lot of CX books out there, as you know, and I was looking for a differentiators looking for something to stand out in the crowd with. And so it combined these, these these backgrounds, my military background as a metaphor for the book, as a sort of an item of originality to give it a sort of a different look and feel, and, and tone in, in the in the writing. But also to is a Filipino concept, the way the military does, which is, you know, anytime I speak for the army, I don't know about anybody else's services. But if you needed to do something you haven't done before, there's a field manual for it. And that might be setting up a field latrine, or strapping a nuclear weapon to an aircraft. Like there's a field manual...

Rick Denton: 6:17

Quite a wide range of needs there for your use case! Your examples are pretty end to end.

Jeff Sheehan: 6:22

And that's my point is like, for anything this building knows on how to coach, you know, soldiers and field manuals on leadership and things like that field manuals on strategy, and so forth. But the field manual is really, if I don't know how to do something, but I'm tasked to go do it, I go grab the field manual, and it will tell me what I need to know. Yeah. And it's dependent book that I can open up to any page. And I have to read it from cover to back cover, I can begin at the chapter that I'm most interested in. Yeah, so that was kind of the, the idea was, was to make it a field manual, useful as it was in the military. But obviously, you know, for a customer experience leader to be able to have that book on their desk, open it up to where they needed an idea or a thought or, you know, whatever kind of they were looking for, that they'd find it in the book. And and it was a practical, useful thing. So he's very guided by the word useful. And so all the feedback I was collecting was, is it useful? Is it put the book together and so so that's really the connection of the military background and the book.

Rick Denton: 7:24

And I like you started with, you know, hey it's a way to differentiate the book and right, every author wants to stand out and be differentiated but, but really, the it's not just that it's the practical nature of it, that it has made it so helpful, that I know when I looked at it, in your description there of hate, no matter what it is, you don't have to go cover to cover. I want to work on a voice of the customer program. Let me open up that chapter and focus on that I want to work on how can I gather insights? Or how can I understand it's open that chapter and I've got that set up? And and I think that field manual is certainly it is, it feels unique in that space that other things can be a little more esoteric, or a little more thought in some of us just by the nature of us being in customer experience. Sometimes we tend to be maybe a little more right brained, and it's a little more artsy and a little more thoughtful and a little more empathetic. I love the practical nature of tick tick. This is how one achieves a top performing CX program.

Jeff Sheehan: 8:17

Yeah, they said, and so I was looking for something that wasn't full of platitudes and vagary, but also something that wasn't so specific that it wouldn't fit into your environment and work it right. So something sort of somewhere in the middle there, that was enough structure. But if you married the structure of the book with the circumstances in your job, you'd have enough to work with.

Rick Denton: 8:39

So I like that you said platitudes, because I want to ask you about one that's in my mind, I mentioned Voice of the Customer earlier, I just sort of organically thinking about that. But I know that a lot of times when setting up a CX program, a lot of companies start with Alright, customer experience is voice the customer which means survey, automatically, they're thinking survey and so I've got a pithy phrase or platitude, don't judge me for it, but stop survey and score but start listening act. And so in that vein, how about let's take that platitude but let's get into action. How do you help companies mature in their customer experience their voice of the customer thinking going from surveys to a total customer experience approach?

Jeff Sheehan: 9:17

Yeah, it's it's the biggest Chapter is the voice of the customer chapter. And there's a big part of that where every chapter has frameworks to sort of ground your thinking in but the voice of the customer program is a listen learn Act program. They're not they're not mutually exclusive as separate they are they're connected as as as are your kidneys and corneas. They are connected by

Unknown: 9:43

Hah! you say you don't do platitudes, but kidneys and corneas...latrines and nuclear weapons. You've got something and you hear it. All right...

Jeff Sheehan: 9:50

My point my point is, you can't you can't like yeah, if you wanted to. And to do that would be harmful, obviously. But, but the idea that you're listening, and there's lots of ideas Do that surveys is clearly one way to listen. But every organization will have its own organic, listening through its Salesforce through its customer service through its complaints department and so on. There's lots of listening going on in an organization. And then the learning is really distill that into some kind of operational term, like what are customers saying they value which you can do more of, what are they complaining about, that you should do less of, and, and this sort of distill that into, okay, if we, if we, it might be a user experience thing, where you change the buttons, or the or the font or something on a mobile app, or a website, or it could be your web chat, ours aren't helpful. For after hours, web chat is only normal business hours, but customers want to use web chat when outside of normal business hours. And, you know, so it could be things like that, where you're getting feedback that you can connect to an operation, and examine it for its it's worth wildness, its impact for changing. And that's where you get into the acting. Another piece of the book, which I do definitely want to expand on in a future bit of work, is this thing called the value irritant matrix, which is not my idea. It's from the book called the best service is no service. And it's basically a four quadrant grid, understanding what customers value, what irritates customers, what your company values, and what irritates your company. And so my best example for is password resets. How many times do you have to call anyone to do a password reset? Right? You know, the election years when like, you had to call someone and wait in the queue and wait and get the identification, security questions, and then you'd get somebody who could help you reset a password and you devote a good 20 minutes at least to do that. You don't do that anymore, because it's an irritant to the company. And it's an irritant to the customer. Yeah. So we were able to do our own password resets. And it's done and dusted in a minute, right. But that's an example of like an irritant irritant that you can address with your customer experience program, by looking at your insights and examining the impact of the operation and saying, How much money will be saved by not taking those phone calls? How much manpower can we devote to more valuable conversations by not taking their calls, for

Rick Denton: 12:27

And that that is so good. That's a great example of your listen, learn and act. And that is okay. We we, if we hadn't been listening, we wouldn't have known that the customers hated password resets. And to you and me now, in 2022. We know that as a DA, but maybe four years ago, five years ago, whatever that looked like, maybe weren't as aware, oh, hey, we provide a way to password reset. That's great. No, but you listen, you find it's an irritant. Then you learn how is an irritant? How can we solve for it, then you act on it. And then another thing you said in there that is particularly insightful is hate. And a lot of folks think that sometimes customer experiences, it costs money, and it does, it can cost money, it can cost money to do this type of work. But there's so many elements, that customer experience helps either increase the revenue, because you're delighting your customers in a better way, or it reduces costs because you have eliminated waste from the customers journey themselves. Or you found a more efficient way to deliver a delightful customer experience. And so there's so much that can come out of that listen, learn and act that you're describing. Now, Jeff, I'm gonna I'm going to change gears on you a little bit because hey, the passport background that I've got here CX password, I love talking about traveling, one of the things that I know, whenever I've traveled across the globe, and I mean, it feels universal. I've seen this in almost every part of the world that I've been in, I can always find an Irish Pub doesn't matter if it's Des Moines, Dubai, Delhi, Djibouti, I can always find Irish culture, no matter where I go. So And what's kind of funny about it is it often seems to be one of the most friendly gathering places as well. So tell me a bit about your travels. I know that you're not Irish, but you've got Irish in your blood now. So I'm just going to call you a and an Irishman. And take that travel for us. What have you seen as you ventured beyond Eire?

Jeff Sheehan: 14:07

You my I am. You know, my father's side of the family is Irish, my great grandmother was from Okay, so we kind of nail it. Yeah. And my great great grandparents are from County Cork, and my wife is is is from Cork. We're not related. But you know, she's very good. But to your point, yeah, I think the biggest x one of the biggest exports of Ireland, of course, is Irish people. And there's a whole very interesting history and me I'm originally from the Boston area. So that was one of the big Yeah, settling places for the Irish immigrants in the in the mid 19th century. And that's when my my great grandmother came to Massachusetts. But yeah, I love to travel and I'm sorry, I forgot the rest of your question.

Rick Denton: 14:58

No, I just know that you've had some Fantastic travel experiences you've, you've told me about some times and Irish pubs have even have your own and would love to hear some of your travel experiences out there.

Jeff Sheehan: 15:08

Oh, yeah. So we were talking and I remember telling you, when I was stationed in Korea, I was a very young guy, and me and three other buddies took a trip to the rest of Asia, we went to Malaysia and Japan and Singapore and Thailand, and we went to Bangkok. We went to a bar in Bangkok. And we, I don't know the name of it, or how we got there. Taxi driver took us and we we, but we met the actor Willem Defoe was in this was in an Irish Pub in Bangkok. And we were on Defoe, he was in Thailand making another movie. But this was 1987. And his big movie platoon had come out in 1986, which was a Vietnam era movie featured the Huey helicopter, which we were flying my buddies and I back in Korea, and we had a great lead a great conversation. And he couldn't believe all me and my friends, because we were very young. I mean, I was a kid 23 years. He couldn't believe we were officers and pilots. And we probably were giving him lots of reasons to doubt. Right, from our behavior, but and it was a really cool experience to meet him because he's a very interesting person who made a phenomenal movie that we'd all seen. But yeah, I think my favorite places are so far. Morocco is one of my absolute favorite of all time places. But then I went to Croatia, and it is stunningly beautiful. The Dalmatian coast. Dubrovnik just an amazing amount of history. And I went several years ago, I think five or six years ago, I went to Croatia and it was relatively unknown. I think Game of Thrones has changed the Toria impact of Croatia. But another place I have been to twice and I really really love it is Iceland. It's it's actually warmer in Iceland in the winter. It's warmer in Iceland than it is in Boston. So you know

Rick Denton: 17:10

why? That doesn't surprise me having done some projects in Boston that does not surprise me. So

Jeff Sheehan: 17:15

Boston is often cold. But yeah, I'm sorry. wicked cold Jeff. It's wicked cold over there. Not the summer though. The summer you got away shots, shots in the summer. But Iceland is this fire and ice you notice volcanoes and glaciers. And this is amazing sort of lunar landscape and the food is great. And it's just the people are very, very friendly.

Rick Denton: 17:45

Jeff, those are awesome stories. What? I don't even know where we can go with that. But I am going to bring you hard into the first class lounge. So it's gonna be a little different than being a young military guy. Traveling Asia, Southeast Asia, sometimes you need a little bit of relaxation. So join me here in the first class lounge. We'll move quickly here and have some fun, I hope now, you may have already answered this question but I'm curious what is a dream travel location from your past?

Jeff Sheehan: 18:13

From my past, I wanted to go back to Croatia, Croatia. I love that. Yeah, beautiful place.

Rick Denton: 18:19

I really want to get there. People continue to say that over and over and I didn't watch Game of Thrones and but I maybe that's why I've been exposed to it just looks beautiful. What is so with your global travels? What is a dream travel occasion? You've not been to yet?

Jeff Sheehan: 18:35

I have not been to Hawaii and yeah, I can't believe it and I and I need to get there. So Hawaii of course the Maldives is always interesting, but it's so far away and so hard to get to but Hawaii is probably the the place that would dream destination place for me.

Rick Denton: 18:54

It is you know what's funny about that, Jeff as is how people set up dream destinations so often based off of where they're from. So I would love to go to Fiji right that's one of the ones that I'd love to but I've had some Australian guests on the podcast and but ya know, I was in Fiji last weekend and enjoyed that. So it is amazing how your distance from your dream destination helps define it as its dream destination. Hawaii is beautiful and I do hope that you get to be there sometime. What is a favorite thing to eat?

Jeff Sheehan: 19:23

Ah, good old fashioned barbecue North Carolina barbecue and Texas barbecue absolute favorite.

Rick Denton: 19:28

Now that's interesting to say both. I don't know if you did that on my behalf as you saw my facial reaction there. Those are two very different kinds of barbecue.

Jeff Sheehan: 19:38

They are and my daughter lives in Raleigh. So when we get together we enjoy the Carolina mustard sort of barbecue, which is very sort of pork based barbecue, right? And but I've got family in in Texas, South Texas in Dallas, San Antonio and Dallas and it's a lot of beef based Yeah, you know, barbecue brisket. ribs and things and it's it's amazing. I love it.

Rick Denton: 20:03

I had no respect for North Carolina barbecue when I was growing up. But I'm going somewhere I'm gonna be a little kinder than how that started. I grew up in Austin, Texas. And so Texas barbecue was where it was. And there's obviously Austin in the Central Texas area. There's some phenomenal barbecue there and it is still my core definition of barbecue. But I went to school at Duke which is in Durham, North Carolina, and was exposed to North Carolina barbecue and was kind of scornful resentful of it until we did our first pig pickin and that pig was roasting slowly, all day. And finally, around three o'clock in the afternoon, you finally get to eat this just glorious barbecue. And that was when I was like, Wait, okay, it's different. But I like it. Who knows? That may be the the, the the observation for even just customer experience and global exposure anyway, right? It's it's different. Yeah, but it's good. So yeah, yeah, in that vein, are actually in the opposite vein, a thing your parents forced you to eat, but you hate it as a kid.

Jeff Sheehan: 21:00

Oh, peas and tomatoes. My mother is a giant fan of canned vegetables. So she would she would open a can of peas, cooked them into submission. And I couldn't leave the table until I eat my peas. And oh my god, I love peas. Now. I mean, Ali, he's by themselves, but as a kid, that was like stylon 13, then it was torture.

Rick Denton: 21:23

I love about this question I've asked that question of every single guest is maybe a couple guests have not been able to but there's almost an immediate reaction to Oh, it was peas and tomatoes, or you know, someone beats or what it might be. So I love hearing that just immediate reaction. But then of course, as we grow up, we get a little different. So going back to travel, it's really the first class Lounge on this one, what is one travel item not including your phone that you will not leave home without?

Jeff Sheehan: 21:51

I tend to rely on some quick dry clothing. And I know it sounds sounds like a weird guy, old guy answer maybe but, but there's this technical clothing, you can wash anywhere. And so, so it didn't have it, it's comfortable. And you can put layers on. And it looks decent. Like if you wanted to go out to a restaurant, you have a shirt with a collar and then you look decent enough to to not get thrown out of a restaurant. So that's my must have.

Rick Denton: 22:25

Jeff, I know we talked earlier about customer experience in the new year. And I've been a regular gym goer since I was in my 30s. And like a lot of folks in their 30s. That's a time that it changes for you because you real I realized I loved food. And I also seem to realize that the metabolism apparently comes to a complete halt at age 30. So I've been irregular. That said, my favorite day at the gym is on or around February 13. And why? It's because that's when the vast majority of people who said I'm going to really get started this year, I'm going to go to the gym, they just start to disappear. And so sustaining that is something that I've always had, in my mind, when I think about customer experience programs is it's really easy to get excited at the beginning, it's really easy to get started day one week, one month one, quarter one, but it's the sustaining is how you get results. If I know it's true of customer experience, its true fitness. So how does a company keep its CX its customer experience, motivation, and then keep motivating its employees to truly sustain.

Jeff Sheehan: 23:28

I would say stories, even you know it in all that work that that's done and all the activity that's done that, you know, hopefully it's focused on work with with a meaningful outcome, you're going to have incredible stories of you know, retail store people, digital support people, of course, your call center agents, contact center agents, and all the support teams, you know, the you know, the CIO and the IT department that's trying to transform the systems that enable more services or work from home kind of things. So you've got an any number of stories inside your organization that should be told you should collect them, and you should tell them you should name names. And you should, you should you should give the attaboy as we said in the army, you praise in public, your coach in private. And so public praise of your your anyone supporting customers in any way. And it doesn't have to be the folks that are in customer facing roles. It can be those those counterintuitive rules, the focus on building apps in and your data analytics department that folks aren't necessarily interacting with your customers, but are hugely important to generating results. Just tell those stories, you know, and one of the things that we see as you see in the verbatims you'll see customers will mention you know, Rick was amazing. He helped me it was made so easy and I was really nervous. All that kind of stuff. That is a huge connection. have, you know your meaning and purpose of your work to the mission, vision and values of your organization. And the more you can connect those things, I think the better customer culture you'll you'll contribute to.

Rick Denton: 25:13

I'm really glad that you said story one, because well, actually, one and all, because it is so important to me. In too often we hear, you know, ROI, we hear about getting quick results. And those are important too. But it's very much that logical aspect of it. And, and the logical is important, I don't, I'm not intending to diminish it. But it's the emotional that really is the glue. It's the reason why people get get their hearts and mind behind the customer. It helps bring that customer to actual life inside the business. When you tell that story I, I worked for a company that the last company that I worked for, before I went independent, and they did a fantastic job of selecting customer stories, and the ones that were particularly special, and then really amplifying it for their big corporate events. And I'm talking about home equity here, right, you wouldn't think home equity is an emotional vehicle, it's not something and let me tell you, when you see someone say I was finally able to adopt a 14 year old into my family, I was finally able to afford the alternative cancer treatment that we couldn't afford otherwise, tears are just falling down at these meetings and people get engaged with the the customer with the company with a mission and all that story. You are totally completely right that that's how the sustaining comes about. And if I can go on and ramble a little bit longer. Yeah, I love how you brought that it's not just the customer, the cliched customer facing roles. It is story is how you connect with the finance department, how you connect with the billing department, the audit team, it is amazing how these customer stories can get folks connected that wouldn't even think that they have a reason to care about the customer.

Jeff Sheehan: 26:55

Yeah, and I think, you know, the word sustain is why I said stories, because, because that will bring people in and and a lot of people need to be convinced that they're impacting the customer. And the stories will really help do that. And you find around, you know, that common mission that those you know, your example is a wonderful one, you know, if you're doing anything meaningful as a company, and we all want to have meaning and purpose in our work, you know, talk about that extend that, brag about that. And right. That's what people want to rally around. I mean, we work to make money and we work to do the things we're supposed to do. In this there's a sort of bare minimum motivation at some sort of call it the base level of motivation, I guess, I would say, but for the the higher meaning and purpose of our work, I think I think stories is really going to reveal and unlock that for an organization.

Rick Denton: 27:49

Yeah, I don't know why we've somehow avoided story. I don't know what, at what point somewhere in the business world, we declared that story. And I realize I'm exaggerating, of course, companies still believe in story. But it's been de emphasized over tactical and financial and operational and result. It is amazing what happens if you change your customer care on a weekly operations meeting, instead of starting with your dashboard of metrics. And instead just start with a customer story. I have seen company cultures change on that factor alone and story really gets gets the the the culture shift moving forward.

Jeff Sheehan: 28:27

Yeah, absolutely. And I was in a very large systems integrator, global company. And we were focused on quarterly. internal metrics. Yeah, net profit, earnings per share, revenue, quarter on quarter growth, and all that kind of stuff. And it all makes sense, right? You're a publicly traded company. But we never talked about customers, we never talked about what I was a sales guy, we never talked about wins. And we never had the customer on stage telling us why they chose us. Yeah, we never did, until the company went this close to being out of business. And we decided, oh, customers are important. We, you know, the Board of Directors, changed some people around and reinvented the mission, vision and values of the organization. And customers became front and center. And the other metrics were less, you know, the focus. And as we were saying, these other examples, you know, once people started hearing what customers chose us and what what we what our work did to help their customer support. People could rally around that that was important and powerful and and that the financial quarterly financial metrics, never motivated anyone to work harder. It was just like yeah, it's the thing to do. Maybe it's the American thing to do. I don't know but it but it just wasn't rallying the troops, so to speak.

Rick Denton: 29:49

Well, I know that I talk about story quite a bit and I have people talk to me about story quite a bit. And I think, I don't want to say something like the pendulum is shifting. I just I think what I want to say is there's company realize it and companies that don't. And each has their different path forward. And I know that I will migrate more towards those that are interested in story and customer story. Jeff, I just looked at the time, we are out of time, I can't believe there's so much more that I want to ask you about talk to you about hear from you. But we're out of time. And so I definitely want this though. And I want people to be able to know how to get in touch with you. So maybe I was able to finish my conversation with you. But how can people get in touch with you? How can they learn more about you? Where can they find your book? Tell me more about that.

Jeff Sheehan: 30:30

Yeah, I'm very easy to find on LinkedIn, I am a huge fan of LinkedIn. So go on and search for Jeff Sheehan, J-E-F-F and you'll find me my book is available on Amazon. And you can you can find it by searching on my name, as opposed to the title and you'll see it right there. And so I hope you do go out and connect with me on LinkedIn and check the book out whether the Kindle version or the paperback version

Rick Denton: 30:56

Well, good. And I'll make sure to get all of that in the show notes, right. So anyone listening via hit pause, and you can check it or actually just scroll down, you can have a look while you're listening. And you'll see all that in the show notes. click those links, and you'll be able to connect with Jeff and you'll be able to buy his book as well. Jeff, I've really enjoyed talking with you. Thank you for being patient with the the gravel road voice today. I've learned a lot. I think what I really came to appreciate towards the end of our conversation is you're talking about this tactical field manual, how to get it done. And yet we still end with story. Combining those two worlds together, you will be able to both develop a phenomenal Customer Experience Program and then continue to tune it by using this manual. It's not a one and done. Keep this and finials sitting on the side of your desk, and then use that story and that storytelling to submit and sustain beautiful stuff. Jeff, thank you so much for talking with me today. I enjoyed it.

Jeff Sheehan: 31:42

Thank you. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. It's fun.

Rick Denton: 31:49

Thanks for joining us this week on CX Passport. Make sure to visit our website cxpassport.com where you can hit subscribe so you'll never miss a show. While you're at it, you can check out the rest of the EX4CX website. If you're looking to get real about customer experience, EX4CX is available to help you increase revenue by starting to listen to your customers and create great experiences for every customer every time. Thanks for listening to CX Passport and be sure to tune in for our next episode. Until next time, I'm Rick Denton, and I believe the best meals are served outside and require a passport.